Why doesn't anyone ever attempt to break Rare Bear's speed record?

[danny]

Re: Why doesn't anyone ever attempt to break Rare Bear's speed record?

There is one "Mouse" left. The 2003 / 2004 Dago Motor - last overhauled by John Slack, Mike Wilton & Steve Bartholf, under the watchfull eye of Dwight - is still owned by Terry Bland. The Motor used in Dago in 2006 was not Dwights Motor.

[Red]

Re: Why doesn't anyone ever attempt to break Rare Bear's speed record?

HAH.

It wasn't but a few years ago that the message boards were slathered in posts about how "the round engines will never win again." The retirement of the Doc definitely made an impact, but things change.

In my best Wallace Shawn voice:
You've fallen into one of the classic blunders. The first is "never get involved in a land war in Asia," only slightly less well-known is "never go in against a Sicilian when DEATH is on the line, and applicable here is "never count Dago Red or Strega out before Sunday evening."



As for the record- When John Slack explained exactly how tough it is to claim the 3km record that Rare Bear holds, it made it pretty obvious why people don't try to claim it very often.

I still stand by my statement. I don't count any of the fastest unlimiteds out, but fact of the matter is there are no more mouse motors. You can not deny the fact that the inlines have had a rough several years.

I want to see one win just as much as anyone, but there is alot of magic that happened with Thorn and Kerch. I just don't see it up to that yet.

[grampi]

Re: Why doesn't anyone ever attempt to break Rare Bear's speed record?

Not True.

A LOT of Grumman's time and effort went into making that airframe as fast and sleek as they could. Remember it was designed to out dogfight the Zero. Very interesting stuff went on with it's development.

While that's true, the Bearcat still has a lot more frontal area than the Mustang and that means more drag.

[BellCobraIV]

Re: Why doesn't anyone ever attempt to break Rare Bear's speed record?

Here are the unlimited gold winners for the years that Rare Bear was entered. Interesting and fun digging this up for you
2007 it was Rare Bear
2006 it was September Fury
2005 It was Dago red
2004 it was Rare Bear.
2003 it was Dago Red
2002 it was Dago Red
2001 races cancelled
2000 it was Dago Red
1999 it was Dago Red
1998 it was Dago Red
1997 it was Strega
1996 it was Strega
1995 it was Strega
1994 it was Miss America, unlimited gold.
1994 it was Rare Bear, Unlimited Super Gold Shootout
1993 it was Strega.
1992 it was Strega
1991 it was Rare Bear
1990 it was Rare Bear
1989 it was Rare Bear
1988 it was Rare Bear
1987 it was Strega
1986 it was Dreadnought
1985 it was Super Corsair
1984 it was Dreadnought
1983 it was Dago Red
1982 it was Dago Red
1981 it was Jeannie
1980 it was Jeannie

1980 is the first year that Rare Bear shows up in the RARA database.

Hope this helps, was alot of fun to dig this info up.

Bob

2005 should be Rare Bear, 2004 should be Dago Red.
2004 was the last Mouse engine.

Prior to 1980 the airplane that would be named Rare Bear won at Reno in 1973, and 1975. The airplane also finished first in 1974 but that is a long and tortured story involving dirty politics by Jerry Duty the race director at the time. Rare Bear was not entered in 1982, or 1984, or 1993, or1998, or 2000, or 2002, Rare Bear also enjoyed wins at Hamilton, Mojave, Phoenix, Miami, and Cape May as well.

[Leo]

Re: Why doesn't anyone ever attempt to break Rare Bear's speed record?

Ahhhh. The ghost of Bearcat vs. Mustang rises again. I think both are fine and represent the finest creations of the times. I just think each was optomized for a slightly different mission, The Mustang as a long range fighter and the Bearcat as a fast climbing fleet defense fighter. It does seem to take a bit more hp to pull the Bear at the 500 range than a Mustang, or are the engines putting out similiar hp despite the huge displacement difference?

[BellCobraIV]

Re: Why doesn't anyone ever attempt to break Rare Bear's speed record?

Ahhhh. The ghost of Bearcat vs. Mustang rises again. I think both are fine and represent the finest creations of the times. I just think each was optomized for a slightly different mission, The Mustang as a long range fighter and the Bearcat as a fast climbing fleet defense fighter. It does seem to take a bit more hp to pull the Bear at the 500 range than a Mustang, or are the engines putting out similiar hp despite the huge displacement difference?

Leo,

The Rare Bear makes a bit over 4,000 Horsepower and the Mouse weighs in at around 3800 to 3900 Horsepower. One of the things not really understood by those that have not raced at this level is that with proper exhaust augmentation and cowling design the effective "flat plate" frontal area can be reduced. We once had an engineer from Langley do a study on the Bearcat for us and the end result was that a Cessna 150 had more "flat plate" frontal drag than Rare Bear. Having been intimate with both engines, I have a little inside knowledge. But nothing I will relate here.

[BellCobraIV]

Re: Why doesn't anyone ever attempt to break Rare Bear's speed record?

Why doesn't someone tear down a Mouse motor and simply reverse engineer a new one?

It is not that simple the 2004 engine that Terry Bland owns has recently been disassembled, the people that have taken it apart have put out feelers wanting to ask questions of those involved with that engine. Dwight Thorn has gone on record as saying "it is time for someone else to figure it out." I personally respect Dwight too much to pass on the information entrusted to me by him solely as a direct result of his stroke. and Steve Bartholff, is in the same mindset. as a result of things moving about in the engine at power a dead bullet is not a good chinese blueprint. Personally as far as the Mustangs go, I think Strega's program is showing the most promise right now by far.

[Leo]

Re: Why doesn't anyone ever attempt to break Rare Bear's speed record?

I don't doubt a lot of little things make a big difference in drag, and looks are decieving. What looks like a big object being forced thru the air can be very clean indeed. Of course a C-150 has the frontal area of a volkswagon van... just kidding.
Sounds to me like they are fairly evenly matched, assuming weight is close. Just that the Merlin is running a more out at the edge, if HP per CI is an indicator. Maybe not though. My wife's 81 Vette gets 170 hp out of 351 ci. My 2001 gets 375 out of essentially the same engine. The same basic engine massaged with 20 years of technology. Makes it even more interesting to me, as that brings all of the "little" factors into more importance, not the least of which is pilot skill.
Thanks John!

[BellCobraIV]

Re: Why doesn't anyone ever attempt to break Rare Bear's speed record?

As to the record itself, Lyle said flying the 3 KM course for the six passes and the tight restrictions imposed on the 3 KM course. Regarding turn around area, maximum altitude change during the turn around, maximum altitude variation while on the 3 KM section of the course, which by the way get harder to abide by as the speed goes up due to the inertia of the airplane not wanting to slow, not wanting to accelerate, etc. the acceleration factor is also one where the Mustangs will give up some ground. You have to slow enough to not exceed the limit altitude, bank around, line up with course, accelerate to speed, hold your altitude to within 300 feet across the 3KM length, then start all over again. During the record run part of my job was to stand at one end of the course and remind Lyle "nitrous off" as he started the turn around, "nitrous on" as he started back on the course. we ran out on the last two passes as I remember of nitrous oxide.

That's more than enough from me.

[BellCobraIV]

Re: Why doesn't anyone ever attempt to break Rare Bear's speed record?

Makes it even more interesting to me, as that brings all of the "little" factors into more importance, not the least of which is pilot skill.
Thanks John!

Leo,

You are right on that point, we were absolutely spoiled having someone with Lyle's drive flying the Rare Bear. He showed no fear and actually lived in his mind racing the course at Reno 365.25 days a year. I loved working with Tiger on the Strega program, and with Skip on the Dago Red Program. While I never raced with Darryl, I have talked with him at length enough to know his drive. The only one I seem to be leaving out is Bob Love and with him that rounds out my all-time top five. I apologize to Mac McClain and Chuck Lyford for them sliding out to tie for sixth. Mac was more of a psychological racer beating some of his opponents on the ground before the planes ever took off, and Lyford just wanted to win.

But most of all racing with "Tige'" was the most fun.

[Paynts]

Re: Why doesn't anyone ever attempt to break Rare Bear's speed record?

I don't doubt a lot of little things make a big difference in drag, and looks are decieving. What looks like a big object being forced thru the air can be very clean indeed. Of course a C-150 has the frontal area of a volkswagon van... just kidding.
Sounds to me like they are fairly evenly matched, assuming weight is close. Just that the Merlin is running a more out at the edge, if HP per CI is an indicator. Maybe not though. My wife's 81 Vette gets 170 hp out of 351 ci. My 2001 gets 375 out of essentially the same engine. The same basic engine massaged with 20 years of technology. Makes it even more interesting to me, as that brings all of the "little" factors into more importance, not the least of which is pilot skill.
Thanks John!

Leo's point about the increase in horsepower in car engines over time is interesting but I've seen it all said here before and although I am sure that if you had the squillions of bucks that a European F1 team has for engine development a Merlin block could put out quite a bit more power, Unlimited racer programmes just don't have those resources to develop the merlin radically -and as someone else said theres an insurance implication for small companies developing new parts to go into aircraft

That said Dago has run those numbers in the past and so it must be possible to do it again !! please!!!

[hm66sk]

Re: Why doesn't anyone ever attempt to break Rare Bear's speed record?

It is not that simple the 2004 engine that Terry Bland owns has recently been disassembled, the people that have taken it apart have put out feelers wanting to ask questions of those involved with that engine. Dwight Thorn has gone on record as saying "it is time for someone else to figure it out." I personally respect Dwight too much to pass on the information entrusted to me by him solely as a direct result of his stroke. and Steve Bartholff, is in the same mindset. as a result of things moving about in the engine at power a dead bullet is not a good chinese blueprint. Personally as far as the Mustangs go, I think Strega's program is showing the most promise right now by far.

Now why is he so intent on keeping this stuff a secret and "letting someone else figure it out." Arrogance? The old "If I can figure it out, you can too." attitude. Now, please don't get the wrong and take the wrong mindset here. I have great respect for the Thorns, Hoveys, and Nixons of the community. They have contributed greatly to the sport and keeping the warbirds flying. But, if they don't pass on this knowledge, who is going to keep these birds in the air for the future?

[MRussell]

Re: Why doesn't anyone ever attempt to break Rare Bear's speed record?

Lots of people know how to keep the birds in the air. It just takes raw cubic money. That's what we have Jack Rouschs and former Microsoft execs for.

JS is talking about the tiny details of proprietary information developed over decades that truly sets Unlimited Gold apart as a SPORT.

[hm66sk]

Re: Why doesn't anyone ever attempt to break Rare Bear's speed record?

Yes, I realise there are others who can build the stock engines to keep the restored birds flying. I'm talking about the specialized mods for the race engines. Why should the ones who have the desire to continue this legacy have to start from scratch? If I could do it all over again, I'd be one of those guys but, if no one is willing to share the info, you are correct. Cubic dollars and lots of trial and error to get back to the point that others have already achieved. Wouldn't it be better to take what we have learned so far and make it even better with those cubic dollars? Once these guys are gone, so is that info.

[MRussell]

Re: Why doesn't anyone ever attempt to break Rare Bear's speed record?

Yes, I realise there are others who can build the stock engines to keep the restored birds flying. I'm talking about the specialized mods for the race engines. Why should the ones who have the desire to continue this legacy have to start from scratch? If I could do it all over again, I'd be one of those guys but, if no one is willing to share the info, you are correct. Cubic dollars and lots of trial and error to get back to the point that others have already achieved. Wouldn't it be better to take what we have learned so far and make it even better with those cubic dollars? Once these guys are gone, so is that info.

Good post, and it got me thinking. Your point can be summarized with a look at Rod Lewis' purchase of the Rare Bear... he didn't just get the airplane. He was damn lucky to get as many of the longtime team members as he did. Can we imagine how monumental his task would be if he only got the engine/airframe/hangar but had to start with a green crew?

BUT, on the flipside, is Michael Phelps obligated to disclose his nuance training secrets after he retires? What about Michael Schumacher or Tiger Woods? Let's put it another way... since Lyle Shelton retired from air racing, is he obligated to share with up-and-coming Unlimited pilots his secrets to a fast lap? Sometimes it happens when an old-hand chooses to mentor an apprentice, as is likely what we're witnessing with Tiger, Steve Sr, and Steve Jr. It explains Jr's good performance at an early age.

I see engine building as the same thing. The "human factor" is the biggest part of any sport, and in air racing the human factor is as much the engine builder as it is the pilot. The human life cycle is a sad-but-unavoidable part of the human factor in a sport. Look at the best football coaches we've ever seen.

In any professional sport, you need that "perfect storm" of coach, raw materials, money, all the team members, and supporting cast. Then you need some luck and some favorable weather conditions. While the sport will continue indefinitely after the perfect storm has dissipated into the history books, I don't think any member of a perfect storm team is obligated in any way to recreate for others what they did for their team.