September Fury

[wolfee]

Re: September Fury

Look around on youtube for a series of videos from Reno 2009. There is a four or five part interview with John, and he goes into a lot of detail regarding the wing on Rare Bear as well as what the wing mod did. He also talks about one year when the CG was so far aft he was having to push the stick forward in the turns. I'd put the links here but I can't youtube at work.

Oh I do remember those! It has been a while since I watched them. I will go back and see if I can dig them up again.

Thanks for the heads up/reminder.

[stuntflyr]

Re: September Fury

Only one wing clip has demonstrably slowed an Unlimited and that was the Sea Fury wings on Signal Sea Fury when flown on the old oval Reno course in 1966 and the same wings on 232 with the new shortened course. They were a benefit to Sherm Cooper's speeds during the 10 mile circular course at Reno 1971 and the 10 and 15 mile courses at San Diego and Mojave, and of course it's high altitude cross country racing.
Chris...

[jarrodeu]

Re: September Fury

Ya, sure. Everyone knows short wings slow you down... Oh wait, what about Conquest 1, Rare Bear, Stiletto, Super Corsair, Cook Cleland's F2G, and Jeannie (now once again Galloping Ghost). Sure slowed them down alright...

Voodoo, Dago Red, and Strega all have clipped wings but they do not have the super clipped wings that the Galloping Ghost has. If I remember correctly, GG's wingspan is 2+ feet shorter than the others. Also, the course is shorter now than is used to be.

Jarrod

[Big_Jim]

Re: September Fury

Ya, sure. Everyone knows short wings slow you down... Oh wait, what about Conquest 1, Rare Bear, Stiletto, Super Corsair, Cook Cleland's F2G, and Jeannie (now once again Galloping Ghost). Sure slowed them down alright...

When Dave Zeuschel did the 'second clip' on Jeannie in the spring of 1983, they took it shorter than any other wing had been done on a Mustang up to that time. Given the speeds that they were running then, and the size of the course--which was about 3/4 of a mile bigger, or more, it made sense. Same reason when Z built Stiletto in '84 he did the same clip. Understand, the clip on those two racers was another foot and a half shorter on each wing than the clipped wings on Strega and Dago. Pretty drastic.

But what they found was that the faster the planes went, and the shorter/tighter the course got, Z's clip was actually too much, and the planes had a tendency to 'mush' around the corners. That's the same thing that Charlie Tucker found out when he clipped the wings on the #28 P-63 at Cleveland...you clip them too much and there is not enough wing to 'hold on' to the air when you go around a relatively tight corner.

If you'll care to take a look back at history, you'll find that when Matt Jackson ran Stiletto last in '92, they put some pretty hefty fiberglass tips on that extended the wingspan by about a foot and a half on each wing...in an attempt to get some of that 'area' back on the shorter courses.

And the course of 2010 is shorter and tighter still than the course of '92.

Back in 1986 when the Papa Frank was going to build a Super Dreadnought racer (the airframe that ended up being Argonaut) and wanted to put the old Miss Merced wingtips on it, Bruce Boland said "sure, if you want to slow it down 15 mph, go ahead". Frank listened and put the project on the shelf. Eric Lorentzen did not listen and put those tips on Blind Man's Bluff...which became Critical Mass. And when Mike Brown wanted to put those tips on 232, Kerch was very vocal against it. Brown won. Kerch had Jim Larsen modify the wingtips to try to get some of the wing area back, but even that didn't work. The plane was faster with the stock wingtips.

So you can throw your sarcasm around about everyone knowing that wing clips slow the airframes down, but...if you do your homework you'll find out there is such a thing as too much of a clip--and that is what is being addressed here.

[Mustang1957]

Re: September Fury

speaking of sea furys,I was surfing earlier and came across a website for a sea fury called sawbones.is this a "new" racer or a renamed racer with new owner?

[Race5]

Re: September Fury

speaking of sea furys,I was surfing earlier and came across a website for a sea fury called sawbones.is this a "new" racer or a renamed racer with new owner?

It was raced in 2009.

[Mustang1957]

Re: September Fury

anything else on it?

[Big_Jim]

Re: September Fury

anything else on it?

Was built up in the 1980's by George Baker...one of the first 'warbird' 3350 Sea Furies. Raced as #71 "Sky Fury" by George, as #47 "Southern Cross" by a couple different owners, and most recently as "Sawbones" with a lot more red trim.

[Mustang1957]

Re: September Fury

big jim,you are the man!

[Race 29]

Re: September Fury

I agree! Jim brings the facts, I love facts! It means more to me than attitude only. Keep the knowledge and the facts coming Jim!

Race 29

[Randy Haskin]

Re: September Fury

Z's clip was actually too much, and the planes had a tendency to 'mush' around the corners. That's the same thing that Charlie Tucker found out when he clipped the wings on the #28 P-63 at Cleveland...you clip them too much and there is not enough wing to 'hold on' to the air when you go around a relatively tight corner.

Is "mush" and "hold on to the air" a technical description? I don't remember those from my aerodynamics classes.

Heh heh.

[Big_Jim]

Re: September Fury

Is "mush" and "hold on to the air" a technical description? I don't remember those from my aerodynamics classes.

Heh heh.

And so the resident fighter pile-it checks in......

Perhaps you can explain it in ACM terms? LOL

[wolfee]

Re: September Fury

Gets the beer and popcorn, and a comfy seat up front for this duel.

[dxlyj]

Re: September Fury

Ya, sure. Everyone knows short wings slow you down... Oh wait, what about Conquest 1, Rare Bear, Stiletto, Super Corsair, Cook Cleland's F2G, and Jeannie (now once again Galloping Ghost). Sure slowed them down alright...

I know this forum is heavily weighted toward Unlimiteds, but it seems to me that there has been a long term trend toward higher aspect ratio wings in aerobatic, F1 and the Biplane class (e.g. Jeff Lo's airplane). Aerodynamically I believe they corner better (i.e. less speed loss - both horizontal and vertical maneuvering). Has there been a Hershey wing Cassutt anywhere near the Gold race in F1 in years?
--
DL

[Big_Jim]

Re: September Fury

I know this forum is heavily weighted toward Unlimiteds, but it seems to me that there has been a long term trend toward higher aspect ratio wings in aerobatic, F1 and the Biplane class (e.g. Jeff Lo's airplane). Aerodynamically I believe they corner better (i.e. less speed loss - both horizontal and vertical maneuvering). Has there been a Hershey wing Cassutt anywhere near the Gold race in F1 in years?
--
DL

Good point...in fact, the high aspect ratio wings were first being tried out on the F-1's back in the mid-80's. Lucy P? Jeff Sawyer? Do I remember that name right?

To counter than, however, I present Texas Gem/Pushy Cat/Pushy Galore/Puffin, which looked more like an F104 wing--short and stubby--and they were just as fast and cornered just as well as the other F-1's of the day...high aspect ratio, Hershey wing, etc.

Just a thought.