Another step back to normal

[spacegrrrl]

Re: Another step back to normal

Quick question, if the deformation was so bad, why didnt the whole tail fail during the initial pull up when the g load was at its highest? Whats the most g's a top runner encounters during a race? And why would this load cause a big failure but a much higher load didnt? enquiring minds wanna know.

You would think that if there was serious structural issues in the tail cone that the pull up would have resulted in catastrophic failure. Particularly when you combine the twisting stress the horizontal stabilizer we asserting with the differential deflection of the elevators.

Spacegrrrl

[spacegrrrl]

Re: Another step back to normal

Had they installed a water tank/equipt. in the aft section for the boil-off system that maybe broke loose or?

Given the servo for the trim tab was in the horizontal stabilizer it is hard to imagine what could come loose in the tail cone then cause the tab to deflect.

That sort of failure would be really hard to determine as well given the nature of the remaining pieces.

Spacegrrrl

[Mluvara]

Re: Another step back to normal

The speed was from in plane telemetry.

Do you know what the source of the telemetry source was (this is meant to be a real question, not meant to challenge your post :-) )? I assumed it was based on the in aircraft instrumentation.

Anyone know the specifics of the telemetry in GG?

Spacegrrrl

The data they referenced was from the GPS receiver in the telemetry unit.

I know that everyone wants to believe that the Ghost was blasting past everyone, but the fact is that Voodoo was not slowing down and the Ghost was not catching him, nor did he blast past the Bear. The Bear slowed down. The average speeds in that race were in the 480-490 range.

I'm also glad that they debunked the popular myth that he pulled 25 g's.

Michael

[Big_Jim]

Re: Another step back to normal

I know that everyone wants to believe that the Ghost was blasting past everyone, but the fact is that Voodoo was not slowing down and the Ghost was not catching him, nor did he blast past the Bear. The Bear slowed down. The average speeds in that race were in the 480-490 range.

Don't confuse them with the facts, Mike. I was put in my place by several well-informed 'experts' on this site when I tried to present the speed data of the top four planes all relative to one another...only to be told I had no clue what I was talking about because they knew what *they* saw and that "...the Ghost was REALLY moving on that last lap!"

It's not worth the fight. Like I told Wild Bill Kelso recently over some other stuff that was floating around: The RIGHT people know the truth.

[Victor Archer]

Re: Another step back to normal

The RIGHT people know the truth.

And those that don't can't stop inventing it...

I'm an expert and I know what happened...
Really? How are you qualified to say something like that?
Oh, well I read about it on the internet...
Interesting, but do you have any training or first hand knowledge?
Yes, I precipitate on aviation chat boards...Oh and I read RGJ...

OMFG

[Bill@Interstell]

Re: Another step back to normal

Well since this thread is already headed south toward bickering, I'll just say I hope none of the recommendation are so onerous that they kill the event. I suspect they won't. The words where feasible were used.

As for the Ghost's speed. Telemetry of 530 mph is pretty good. I certainly won't claim Strega or Voodoo were any slower. I would say Jimmy was hauling ass past my position on the fenceline. Here is his last pass down the VoS and into 7 and 8. You be the judge.

https://vimeo.com/40134911

[AAFO_WSagar]

Time Out.....

Start another thread if you guys want.. this one managed to get a bit out of control, or is headed that way...

Remember, be nice.......

[spacegrrrl]

To be clear about my post yesterday

It wasn't my intention to "argue" with anyone. I wasn't trying to say GG was blowing everyone away, I was saying GG seemed to be going pretty fast and that looked good for the racing to come. You can make the case at least three other racers were going very well too so what an awesome Sunday we would have had.

One question I have at this point is why do folks have to be so quick to jump on anyone that says that GG was going insanely well? At this point we'll never know and I just don't see why we can't let folks that believe GG would have taken the gold have that belief? At this point why not? Fact is all the the other racers are going to have their shot at the gold again and again. GG will remain a mystery. So if someone wants to believe GG was the fastest mustang ever, fine. Seems like a fitting way to remember a wonderful racer.

I also commented on the fact it seemed like the investigators were close to identifying the principal cause. I think that is important because if it is something simple and understood then precautions can be taken going forward.

And finally I asked some questions as questions, not challenges. If the thread hadn't have been locked I would have posted something to this affect to try and get the discussion back on track.

The one other element of my thread yesterday was I was surprised to have had a physical reaction to the video of the indecent after all this time.

So sorry if I came across as argumentative, it was not my intent, but some folks here have such a bias that they see every question as an affront. I asked how the telemetry system works and I have to preface the question with a comment that it really is a question??? Come on folks.

Maybe we need a different font to use for comments meant to be snarky.

Spacegrrrl

[flyingjibus]

Re: To be clear about my post yesterday

Welcome to AAFO.

Best to just let it go. in the end we are all here for the same reason.

[AAFO_WSagar]

Re: Another step back to normal

I've had one pretty heart-felt request to open this thread up, so I've done so. It's your forum, pleaseeee try to keep the messages that could be seen as inflammatory (not always easy) to a minimum... or use a lot of similiey faces or something...



PS.. I've also merged this thread with another opened to explain posts in this one....

[ignomini]

Re: To be clear about my post yesterday

Personal opinion, Mr. Wayne was a little quick to lock that thread. I've seen a whole lot worse. (Oops, Wayne inserted his post while I was writing mine.)

I'm still unclear if they meant to imply a trim tab failure precipitated the initial roll to the left and subsequent pitch up, or did the failure happen as a result of some violent maneuvers. I keep thinking about Matt Jackson's comments about a possible CG problem.

One thing which I haven't seen much about is why Jimmy, who historically flew low and tight, was flying high and loose all week. Did he have a handling problem?

I'm not looking to stir passions, just trying to fill in the blanks. I was on the receiving end, and understanding exactly what happened matters to me.

And no, I'm not looking to assign any blame. I'm totally uninterested in blaming anyone for anything.

[spacegrrrl]

Re: To be clear about my post yesterday

Personal opinion, Mr. Wayne was a little quick to lock that thread. I've seen a whole lot worse. (Oops, Wayne inserted his post while I was writing mine.)

I'm still unclear if they meant to imply a trim tab failure precipitated the initial roll to the left and subsequent pitch up, or did the failure happen as a result of some violent maneuvers. I keep thinking about Matt Jackson's comments about a possible CG problem.

One thing which I haven't seen much about is why Jimmy, who historically flew low and tight, was flying high and loose all week. Did he have a handling problem?

I'm not looking to stir passions, just trying to fill in the blanks. I was on the receiving end, and understanding exactly what happened matters to me.

And no, I'm not looking to assign any blame. I'm totally uninterested in blaming anyone for anything.

So maybe with GG flying faster than Jimmy had flown till then he decided a smoother course would be the fastest time wise? That sadly will be a mystery we will never know the answer to.

I've heard race pilots offer all sorts of reasons for choosing the line they like to race and I am sure it must vary based on what racer they are flying. It would be interesting to hear from some of the racers about their experiences flying to course and how they have come to choose the line they fly.

Spacegrrrl

[Big_Jim]

Re: To be clear about my post yesterday

One thing which I haven't seen much about is why Jimmy, who historically flew low and tight, was flying high and loose all week. Did he have a handling problem?

Okay. I tried to post a response to something like this back in Sept/Oct and NOBODY wanted to listen to what I had to say. Trust me. As someone who has been around Reno LONGER than Jimmy's racing career, and having seen him race for that entire career, here is the bottom line (and DO NOT take this as picking a scab off, rather as the truth...and if you ask anybody who has been around the same length of time, they will agree with me):

Jimmy was a great pilot in the 350-380 mph range. He could tool around at sagebrush height all day long in Cloud Dancer. However, anyone who ever watched him fly Specter/LARS knows that when the speeds went up, his race line got significantly worse. He flew what I refer to as the "John Crocker line" which was high and outside. Dont know if it was a visibility issue with the smaller canopies (there were four different canopies that Jimmy tried on that airframe over the years), or if it was just a comfort level when going faster. Fact is...he never flow low and close when the speeds got up above the 450 mph range. Consequently, he always had to fly a longer distance than the guys who were flying the 'Greenamyer line'.

Maybe enough time has passed that I can now post this without the villiagers hauling out the pitchforks and torches.

[flyingjibus]

Re: Another step back to normal

I think this is pretty clear. I dont know why so many are missing this:

While the investigation is ongoing, Chairman Hersman provided a detailed interim update that showed that the accident sequence initiated with an upset that preceded the separation of the left elevator trim tab by approximately 6 seconds.

Trim tab was not the cause of the initial "wobble" according the the NTSB.

It is my opinion that Jimmy may have over corrected when he got into some bad air. This over correction over stressed parts of the air frame.

Big Jim, I applaud you for speaking your mind in the above post. While these men and women are incredibly brave and worthy of all the praise they earn, they are not above making mistakes, or biting off more than they can chew.

[AAFO_WSagar]

Re: To be clear about my post yesterday

Personal opinion, Mr. Wayne was a little quick to lock that thread. I've seen a whole lot worse. (Oops, Wayne inserted his post while I was writing mine.)

OK..I'm only human.. it was late, I've only had time over the past few days to briefly check the message directions, watch for SPAM, fights... etc.. some of that time, only via my cell phone... The thread initially looked good, then it seemed to take a particularly "challenging" direction. "Wright" or wrong, I will always err on the side of "I don't like "call-outs-via-post" messages.. however well hidden/or not the intended message may seem to be"... again.. I'm only human, I sometimes make decisions based on my gut, and admit that I might have acted in haste, and I've reverse my initial gut reaction... but, again, again.. I'll always choose to err on the side of keeping this a civil place where everyone can feel at home. Maybe not with a chair that has their name on it, but as close as we can come to that!

I'm still unclear if they meant to imply a trim tab failure precipitated the initial roll to the left and subsequent pitch up, or did the failure happen as a result of some violent maneuvers. I keep thinking about Matt Jackson's comments about a possible CG problem.

I listened to all of it, I did not hear/see anything said that contained "implications" or effort to put forth a "theory" of exactly what happend. The NTSB, in my mind, has pretty much always done a good job of gathering and disseminating facts with little speculation or premature conclusions.

One thing which I haven't seen much about is why Jimmy, who historically flew low and tight, was flying high and loose all week. Did he have a handling problem?

This part of that day's events carries a particularly hard for me to digest "ASSUMPTION"...

I've seen shortly posted/then deleted "I know this is what happened because someone told me" sort of posts which headed down this road... I've also spoken with some really well respected people in the sport who *WONDERED* thinking briefly, down this same avenue... I've recently fielded calls from friends who saw news stories playing in Nevada "local news"... I watched the entire webcast from the NTSB, nowhere in the transcript of the press conference do I see anything coming from the NTSB that blames Jimmy Leeward for this accident.

I keep seeing, and fielded several calls today, regarding a quote from the NTSB press conference. I do not have my transcript handy, but what "she" said was something like "The pilot had never gone this speed, on this course, in this airplane"

What is getting left out in this quote/misquote is the last part of the sentence... "The pilot had never gone this speed, on this course, in this airplane"

I didn't see a clear conclusion from the NTSB in their press conference that headed down any avenue that directly said any one person or thing was at fault or if changed at the time of the accident, that would have prevented what happened.