OT: Burt Rutan's BiPod

[TWD]

Re: OT: Burt Rutan's BiPod

That thing is way cool !
The electric motors solve lots of problems.
Slide in a hydrogen powerplant and you've got a hydrogen powered a/c.
I've been wondering what a hydrogen a/c could look like.

You would definitely want to be careful with it when driving on the road, but probably not much different from the English Mini that I just saw driving down the interstate. It's not a Ford Excursion, so don't treat it as such in road mode.
Separate driving positions for road and flight. Fantastic.
Many cool things about this vehicle.
Atta Boy to the team that got it into the air.
TJ

[dan kreigh]

Re: OT: Burt Rutan's BiPod

I saw that announcement some days ago, with only one small blurry photo. Nice to see they finally released more of them.


I don't see this ever going anywhere for the same flaws that infected previous car-plane attempts:


1. Having to dissemble the aircraft after landing to convert to car-mode, not convenient in poor weather and/or extreme temps.

2. Having to find a place to store the aircraft parts (wings, propellers, etc.) while scooting around in the automotive portion of the craft.

3. a light-enough-to-fly vehicle will also be a big problem when pounded by strong crosswinds churned up by passing big-rigs or even Mother Nature herself. Perhaps ballast tanks on the bottom of the fuselage that can be filled and drains of water would aid stability.

4. What protection is there from collisions, especially side impacts. I doubt there will be any crush space nor steel beams to absorb collision energy before reaching the passenger as found on modern automobile doors. How about roll-over protection should it end up on it's roof at freeway speeds?

One good accident in a "Bipod" that kills somebody, whom it is determined would have likely survived in a modern car with modern safety features, would generate a major lawsuit that could wipe out any aircraft company. Looks at the massive losses Ford had to endure with the Bronco/Firestone roll-over fiasco some years back....few aircraft companies could survive such a legal attack.

5. Lack of sufficient "trunk" space for automotive use, and no doubt a limited cargo payload after passengers anyway...batteries are STILL heavy, even the expensive, high-capacity lithium ones.

6. Does a minor traffic collision or parking lot bump mean an expen$ive airframe-inspection will be required before flight can be allowed again? In a regular car you just drive home complaining about the new dent in your left-rear fender or driver's side door.

7. Will the pod with the car controls require dual, rear-view mirrors by law, as is with all other passenger road vehicles ( at least in Calif.)?

Is there much point? Despite that dream that every heavy-traffic commuter has enjoyed, you will not be able to simply lift-off and bypass traffic jams and detours. You will have to visit the nearest airport to take flight, and ONLY IF the aircraft portions of your vehicle are stored there, make the conversion, the take to the air. Launching and landing (at another legal landing site only) may each require a fee.

At that point, tired, maybe sleepy, in a hurry or whatever the case, you will now, before you can go anywhere, break the plane down back into a car, find a place to store those flight-related bits (more money spent for storage fees, if safe storage is available on site at all), and only then PERHAPS you can finally leave the airport.



I don't think this is gonna happen.... in my lifetime anyway. Much has to change and improve first.


.
.

I don't mean to make this an attack. As a hardcore flying car nut for over 20 years, I've seen about everything. BiPod is a very interesting deviation from your normal flying car concept. I thought I would have fun and just try to address each of these points unemotionally.

Point by point answers te each point above.

1. One lands before entering poor weather. Conversion is done before poor weather hits. For high temp…just sweat it out…won’t take long to convert.

2. BiPod gives the option of taking the wings with you – no storage necessary

3. BiPod is the first roadable airplane/flying car that I am aware of that uses aerodynamics to stick to the ground effectively making it “heavy”.

4. Bipod is probably safer than a motorcycle and I haven’t heard of any motorcycle companies going out of business lately.

5. Storage areas in both pods are long enough to store skis or golf clubs.

6. That is why the flight critical components are shielded between the pods.

7. Mirrors can go on the inside of the canopies facing aft like in some high mileage vehicles or remote cameras or…..

quote "Is there much point? Despite that dream that every heavy-traffic commuter has enjoyed, you will not be able to simply lift-off and bypass traffic jams and detours."

Answer: About the only thing that would solve that problem is antigravity and probably wouldn’t be a “legal” takeoff anyway.

Just some thoughts

Dan Kreigh

[First time Juke]

Re: OT: Burt Rutan's BiPod

That would have to be one hell of a road!

Right...my way or the high way !

[AirDOGGe]

Re: OT: Burt Rutan's BiPod

I have to address some of these replies, if I may:

1. One lands before entering poor weather. Conversion is done before poor weather hits. For high temp…just sweat it out…won’t take long to convert.

"Just sweat it out" is not the best thing for a salesman to tell a potential customer. And do you always land when it's cold, a light drizzle or merely unpleasant outside?. I didn't say there had to be a storm front preventing further flight.

2. BiPod gives the option of taking the wings with you – no storage necessary

I saw no mention of that anywhere. Where are the wings stored? Does doing so consume needed cargo space?

3. BiPod is the first roadable airplane/flying car that I am aware of that uses aerodynamics to stick to the ground effectively making it “heavy”.

If that works via active aerofoil controls, great. Of course a big gust from a truck going the other way or even from bad weather could overpower them and upset those aerodymanics, just like a small plane following a much larger one flying into turbulence. I'd be worried about that.

And even lightweight race cars using downforce devices have taken flight unintentionally. I wouldn't want that to happen while driving a bipod sitting in the car-controls side, unless I had a rated pilot as passenger in the other seat that is.

4. Bipod is probably safer than a motorcycle and I haven’t heard of any motorcycle companies going out of business lately.

It may or may not. There is no determination on that point. It may be safer than a Moped too, but a Bipod isn't either of these...It's a car with 4 wheels, so that's what it should be compared to. A motorcycle is another beast entirely.

By the way, Buell folded just a few years ago, and Indian nearly did likewise until acquired by Polaris Industries Inc just months ago.

5. Storage areas in both pods are long enough to store skis or golf clubs.

I've heard that before in sales pitches for other aircraft, but I don't own either skies nor clubs, both long but LIGHTWEIGHT items. Not my sports.

Can I carry my mountain bike (and my passenger's) to the local ski resort 300 miles away in the summer? I ride. That's why I travel lengthy distances (except for expeditions to Stead of course)

And Who FLIES to golf courses anyway? There must be a dozen of them or more within 10 miles of me.

6. That is why the flight critical components are shielded between the pods.

So if someone bumps the tail or some other critical area of the airframe, potentially causing hidden damage of the composite material, you need not worry because the flight controls are in the middle of the machine? Sorry, doesn't 'fly' with me.

7. Mirrors can go on the inside of the canopies facing aft like in some high mileage vehicles or remote cameras or…..

Not according to current traffic laws. California road vehicles must have 2 mirrors, and one (I believe) has to be on the outside driver's side (the other can be in the inside or on the opposite side of the vehicle.

26709. (a) Every motor vehicle registered in a foreign jurisdiction and every motorcycle subject to registration in this state shall be equipped with a mirror so located as to reflect to the driver a view of the highway for a distance of at least 200 feet to the rear of such vehicle.

Every motor vehicle subject to registration in this state,[b] except a motorcycle[/[b], shall be equipped with not less than two such mirrors, including one affixed to the left-hand side.

Of course with a vehicle like this with 2 vertical fins, a cockpit mounted mirror won't provide very good visibility to the rear anyway...talk about a blind spot!


One new thought came to mind too. Legal road cars must use tempered safety glass windshields. Plexi shields are not legal for production 4-wheeled street vehicles (motorcycles are exempted). And glass windshields are heavy, another penalty for aircraft mode.


Yes, there are many many problems to be dealt with to make one of these work, including an unlikely relaxation of road vehicle regulations. And even though I love solving issues like these mentioned (it's practically my hobby), I don't see the latter happening in my lifetime.

[jotunn]

Re: OT: Burt Rutan's BiPod

"Just sweat it out" is not the best thing for a salesman to tell a potential customer. And do you always land when it's cold, a light drizzle or merely unpleasant outside?. I didn't say there had to be a storm front preventing further flight.

“Just sweat it out” is what happens in almost every small GA aircraft flown on a hot summer day, at least for the first portion of flight. Agreed it’s not a great sales pitch, but it seemed to work for Cessna, Beech, etc. allowing them to sell the thousands of small GA aircraft currently in operation sans air conditioning.

Inconveniences happen – they’re an inherent part of aviation. Whether it’s sweat, blood, financial, or otherwise, they’re here to stay; some may even go so far as to say that inconvenience adds to the thrill of flight. Personally, I’d rather deal with taking the wings off than walk (often several miles from a small airport) to a rental car company, or beg an FBO for a crew car because I just pumped 8 gallons of gas into my C-150.

I saw no mention of that anywhere. Where are the wings stored? Does doing so consume needed cargo space?

See the photo mid-way down this av week article:

http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/blogs/aviation_week/on_space_and_technology/index.jsp?plckController=Blog&plckBlogPage=BlogViewPost&newspaperUserId=a68cb417-3364-4fbf-a9dd-4feda680ec9c&plckPostId=Blog%3aa68cb417-3364-4fbf-a9dd-4feda680ec9cPost%3ace084daa-4385-40ee-9664-b29f4a0cfecb&plckScript=blogScript&plckElementId=blogDest

If that works via active aerofoil controls, great. Of course a big gust from a truck going the other way or even from bad weather could overpower them and upset those aerodymanics, just like a small plane following a much larger one flying into turbulence. I'd be worried about that.

I worry about that on my 325lb. motorcycle, but I still ride.

It may or may not. There is no determination on that point. It may be safer than a Moped too, but a Bipod isn't either of these...It's a car with 4 wheels, so that's what it should be compared to. A motorcycle is another beast entirely.

Safety is safety. What’s wrong with comparing it to a motorcycle? If you can’t compare it to a motorcycle, you certainly can’t compare it to a car – it does fly after all. Really, it’s in a class of its own.

The closest comparison that can be made outside of the flying car “class” would be to special purpose vehicles; vehicles that aren’t daily drivers, something like antiques or classis. Obviously classics are not nearly as safe as modern automobiles either; mine don’t even have seatbelts. Should I sell them and drop the hobby because they’re not as safe as a modern vehicle?

I've heard that before in sales pitches for other aircraft, but I don't own either skies nor clubs, both long but LIGHTWEIGHT items. Not my sports.

Can I carry my mountain bike (and my passenger's) to the local ski resort 300 miles away in the summer? I ride. That's why I travel lengthy distances (except for expeditions to Stead of course)

And Who FLIES to golf courses anyway? There must be a dozen of them or more within 10 miles of me.

No…but you can’t do that in any aircraft in a comparable weight class. It sounds like you need a GV. As far as dozens of suitable local golf courses, I’m sure Mr. Rutan, after 40 years in Mojave, would disagree.

So if someone bumps the tail or some other critical area of the airframe, potentially causing hidden damage of the composite material, you need not worry because the flight controls are in the middle of the machine? Sorry, doesn't 'fly' with me.

The same argument could be made for any composite aircraft. If this is a concern, avoid the 787 for your travels. What if the mechanic dropped his wrench on the wing skin? What if a piece of FOD flung up off the runway and impacted the fuselage on takeoff? I’ll remit that damage tolerance is a concern in the field of composites, but the fear is mitigated by design for damage tolerance and inspection.

Not according to current traffic laws. California road vehicles must have 2 mirrors, and one (I believe) has to be on the outside driver's side (the other can be in the inside or on the opposite side of the vehicle.

26709. (a) Every motor vehicle registered in a foreign jurisdiction and every motorcycle subject to registration in this state shall be equipped with a mirror so located as to reflect to the driver a view of the highway for a distance of at least 200 feet to the rear of such vehicle.

Every motor vehicle subject to registration in this state,[b] except a motorcycle[/[b], shall be equipped with not less than two such mirrors, including one affixed to the left-hand side.

Of course with a vehicle like this with 2 vertical fins, a cockpit mounted mirror won't provide very good visibility to the rear anyway...talk about a blind spot!


One new thought came to mind too. Legal road cars must use tempered safety glass windshields. Plexi shields are not legal for production 4-wheeled street vehicles (motorcycles are exempted). And glass windshields are heavy, another penalty for aircraft mode.


Yes, there are many many problems to be dealt with to make one of these work, including an unlikely relaxation of road vehicle regulations. And even though I love solving issues like these mentioned (it's practically my hobby), I don't see the latter happening in my lifetime.

Call me philosophical, but when law discourages technological advancement, society has failed. Where would the sport of air racing be if there was no experimental category and everything flying had to be certified?

Either way, "where to put the mirrors" is a minor nuance that can certainly be solved by design.

[TWD]

Re: OT: Burt Rutan's BiPod

Outside mirrors should not be that difficult.
How about put a magnet on them and stick them to the outside.

The part about using the drive wheels to get up to speed for take off is great. So many cool things about the Bipod.


Why would someone buy/build this? Because they think aviation is cool. They want a toy. Last year at the lake I saw an amphibious car drive up the launch ramp and drive off. A flying car isn't for everyone. Hell, I would never want to own a Harley, but some people seem to think they are fun enough to own them.

TJ

[First time Juke]

Re: OT: Burt Rutan's BiPod

Outside mirrors should not be that difficult.
How about put a magnet on them and stick them to the outside.
TJ

This is a cool idea and works, but I am afraid there are hundreds of other reasons why it cannot do the work of a car...in car mode.

Burt Rutan was and still is a fountainhead in aviation creations...that is for sure.

[TWD]

Re: OT: Burt Rutan's BiPod

This is a cool idea and works, but I am afraid there are hundreds of other reasons why it cannot do the work of a car...in car mode.

Reasons such as ?

[First time Juke]

Re: OT: Burt Rutan's BiPod

My concerns are more in the roadworthiness...but let's say if you only need to drive at day time in the summer it is more free and usable like these ( enclosed).

[AirDOGGe]

Re: OT: Burt Rutan's BiPod

But nothing specific to bring up?


IMO, though tragic in the end, the Flying Pinto was the nearest thing I've seen to a practical flying car.

Though requiring on-site storage of the flying portion of the vehicle, when converted you had a standard useful 4-seat car, not a little egg with wheels sticking way out like the Molt Taylorcar, nor a weird "What the heck is that?" driving contraption like the new Terrrafugia folding wing machine currently undergoing testing.


A shame the Pinto-plane inventor was such a poor engineer and did a layman's job of converting it, resulting in airframe failure and the loss of 2 lives. I think he was on the right track. A little lightening of the car by replacing some body panels with carbon fiber parts, and certain other parts with lighter aluminum versions, maybe a smaller and lighter engine and a proper wing set that could handle the weight, and it could have been somewhat of a success.


I'd like to see this idea tried again today, but with a more modern and lighter car, say a BMW Mini. (Please, no SMART cars ).

The Pinto was small, but heavy for it's size, and that pesty gas tank ruptures if rear-ended issue that was in the news some time ago is definitely a no-go item. (Whether the latter issue was true or not, I can't say, as I had a friend who's pinto was rear-ended hard enough to crush a steel tool box he had in the back, but no fuel ever leaked from his tank).

[Apteryx]

Re: OT: Burt Rutan's BiPod

I don't know about you guy's, but I've yet to own a car that hasn't
been dented in a parking lot, or bumped on the road, or had road
debris bounce off the bottom of the car or windshield, and I really wouldn't want that abuse to controls or structural components.
Give me enough cargo area for a small motorcycle, or an airport with an Avis office, but I just don't see the need to mix the two worlds.

[AAFO_WSagar]

Re: OT: Burt Rutan's BiPod

I don't know about you guy's, but I've yet to own a car that hasn't been dented in a parking lot

Oh boy.. yet another excuse to drag a topic !!

What is it that people don't realize about driving a car that, if you open your door and dent the car beside you, IF you are caught doing that, it is, technically a collision?

Sorry, was married to a life-long insurance adjuster.... (in a previous life)..

As a car owner who does not appreciate those little "speed dimples" that others seem bent on giving us... what to hell is wrong with people that they think that this is OK??

"I open my door, I dent the car beside me.. this is normal"

Sorry, I just don't get it...

Further off topic.. (yes, I'll open a new thread)....

Why does it seem that we have an entire generation or, whatever it is... that simply does not understand the "HAMMER LANE?"... for those of you reading this who have no idea of what I'm referring to... the LEFT lane of any multiple lane roadway??

GOOTFW...

Get Out Of The.. (Word starting with the letter F, left to your imagination) Way???

Glad I never fulfilled my earlier "dream" to become a long haul truck driver!

[AirDOGGe]

Re: OT: Burt Rutan's BiPod

I hear ya Wayne, especially after having to follow some guy yesterday towing a ski boat in the fast lane of a 4 lane freeway and holding back traffic (4 lanes on each side that is). Calif. law requires people with trailers to use the right-side lanes only.

[Bob]

Re: OT: Burt Rutan's BiPod

I have to deal with the big rigs going over the sierras daily. Never fails that one truck will pull out to pass another on the uphills, and he will be going like .001mph faster. Takes forever to make the pass and clogs up both lanes.

[First time Juke]

Re: OT: Burt Rutan's BiPod

But nothing specific to bring up?

No...nothing.

But if you can use your imagination and imagine 3 feet of snow and pitch black and -40C degs ...you'll see what it needs and has not.

Also if you go to a car spare part shop you might end up thinking all the parts a good maintenance for decades needs for a vehicle to become succesfull product.