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The Ultimate Mustang?

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  • #16
    Re: The Ultimate Mustang?

    Originally posted by Unregistered
    ...In fact, prior to the turbine era, the last unlimited hydroplane with an Allison to win a National Championship was 1957.
    In fact, prior to the turbine era, no one managed to do much to these engines except turn up the boost control. Given that 2 stage Merlins vastly outnumbered 2 stage Allisons comparing a Merlin to a single stage Allison in the pre-turbine era is comparing 120" MAP engines with 85" MAP engines.

    The year is 2006. We know a bit more about modifying engines now and it is very telling that the most successful non-turbine teams run Allisons. And these are running at higher power levels than the Merlins can match. I also grew up in the Puget Sound and have a close relative with 4 inboard titles. So what? This is about what we would do TODAY. Not 20 years ago.

    Today, we would turbocharge: more complete cycle, more reliable, lower stress/HP, better SFC, less heat. Modern turbocharging only please.

    Today we would run on pure methanol. A far better fuel than leaded gasoline, it allows more boost, lower temperatures, higher power density. Change the oil every day and pickle the tanks after the week. We have to do the same to the ADI anyway.

    Today we would run FADEC. There is no advantage to carbs and magnetos other than they are sitting there. No other racing series uses such archaic technology.

    BTW, my relative is the first to wave the FADEC/methanol/turbocharging flag despite the fact that he won all of his races with a magneto ignition engine. One of the things that stops a lot of racers from other motorsports from helping out in unlimiteds is the "we do it this way because that's the way we've always done it" mentality. If IF1 thought this way they'd still be racing low aspect ratio Hershey bar wings.
    Eric Ahlstrom

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    • #17
      Re: The Ultimate Mustang?

      Eric: Would a turbo'd Allison G-6 fit in a Mustang? Would a P-38 turbo provide enough boost, or is there a newer, better alternative? Great posts -- thanks! Peas

      PS The ultimate Allison: V1710-E22 Turbo-compound engine intended for the XP-63.
      Rutan Long EZ, N-LONG
      World Speed Record Holder

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      • #18
        Re: The Ultimate Mustang?

        How bout one of these? V3420 V24 cylinder. 2885hp, 2655lbs. http://www.wpafb.af.mil/museum/engines/eng3.htm

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        • #19
          Re: The Ultimate Mustang?

          I'm trying to collect as much information as available on Vendetta. This airplane was built by my father John Dilley.

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          • #20
            Re: The Ultimate Mustang?

            Originally posted by jdilley
            I'm trying to collect as much information as available on Vendetta. This airplane was built by my father John Dilley.
            There should be much information here, a person who knows a lot about it would be Bill Rogers up in Seattle area.. He built Miss Ashely II with the wing from Vendetta...

            I met your dad several years ago in Bill's pit, he's is still OK isn't he?

            Wayne Sagar
            PS PM me and I'll put you in contact with Bill Rogers
            Wayne Sagar
            "Pusher of Electrons"

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            • #21
              Re: The Ultimate Mustang?

              The RR bearings (mentioned as a jit short production run order).... these or the normal plain bearings use the the v12 family... either RR or Allisons.....

              are these plain bearings the common tri-metal / antimony that i have seen around in current "plain" brg. technology?

              BMarsh

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              • #22
                Re: The Ultimate Mustang?

                Originally posted by Unregistered
                In fact, prior to the turbine era, the last unlimited hydroplane with an Allison to win a National Championship was 1957.
                Miss Madison in `71. Took the Gold Cup. No turbos. I don't know if that was the last Allison win though. Anyone have a pic of one of the craziest later turboed Allisons in a hydro? It was a three stage set-up with a turbo feeding a turbo feeding a turbo. Anyone remember that?
                Last edited by hm66sk; 02-10-2008, 09:16 AM.
                "And if they stare, just let them burn their eyes on your moving."

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                • #23
                  Re: The Ultimate Mustang?

                  Originally posted by Bill Marsh
                  The RR bearings (mentioned as a jit short production run order).... these or the normal plain bearings use the the v12 family... either RR or Allisons.....

                  are these plain bearings the common tri-metal / antimony that i have seen around in current "plain" brg. technology?

                  BMarsh
                  The Bearing Question has more to do with the "Mouse"Merlin being asked to perform at 120+MAP...AND keep the center crankshaft journal in line at that Power setting. It has been said that journal can be re-linebored to +.030max and the bearings are anything but "normal'' OR ''common'', in fact, they are a down-right "Mouse" MYSTERY...D.
                  Last edited by David E. Wells; 02-11-2008, 07:31 PM.

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                  • #24
                    Re: The Ultimate Mustang?

                    Okley dokley, been lurkin for a bit on this one, but here goes:

                    The Merlin makes 2500HP (reliably) at most.

                    The Allison makes similar power...

                    The Griffon makes 4000HP (reliably) at most.


                    The fastest Mustang thus far has been Griffon powered: Red Baron


                    So, with new prop tech, the hot setup would be a Griffon powered plane with canopy mods, and a single prop.

                    No CR! The 5 or 7 blade deal with new tech blades would be less rotational mass with more thrust.

                    The cut-down Shackleton props are too... ah... vintage... for a modern racer. IMHO.



                    You'll notice the caveat "(reliably)" above.

                    You could make a Merlin make 4000HP... For like 5 minutes before you had alot of expensive, blown-up junk...

                    Somebody earlier was griping about the Mustangs on the ground.

                    Reliability.

                    Somebody was talking about 120" MPs... Just to be competitive in Silver...

                    The Merlin is at its design limits.
                    Last edited by TOR_DP; 02-11-2008, 09:51 PM.
                    Jerry Beck II
                    Director of Photography
                    1st. Asst. Director
                    Thunder Over Reno

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                    • #25
                      Re: The Ultimate Mustang?

                      Originally posted by TOR_DP
                      Okley dokley, been lurkin for a bit on this one, but here goes:


                      The fastest Mustang thus far has been Griffon powered: Red Baron


                      I think Dago Red would dissagree with the above statment.

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                      • #26
                        Re: The Ultimate Mustang?

                        Originally posted by Hawkeye
                        I think Dago Red would dissagree with the above statment.
                        And Strega, and Voodoo.

                        Jarrod

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                        • #27
                          Re: The Ultimate Mustang?

                          correct me if I'm wrong guys but to qualify at 500 + at reno your straight line speed would be faster than red baron's best in her day

                          Race: Unlimited Heat 2-A Gold Date: 2003-09-12 Distance: 50.33 miles
                          Pilot Name: Holm, Skip Aircraft: Dago Red - Race 4 Type: P-51D Mustang
                          Time: 5:57.29 Speed: 507.105 Place: 1

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                          • #28
                            Re: The Ultimate Mustang?

                            DAGO RED for sure...what kinda prop did it have in that flight ? Was it much modified ?
                            http://max3fan.blogspot.com/

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                            • #29
                              Re: The Ultimate Mustang?

                              Dago uses a 4 blade I think, Red Baron used a cut down shacklton contra rotating 6 blade
                              its interesting that qualifying speeds seem lower these days, they did change the course at some point didn't they? somone?

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                              • #30
                                Re: The Ultimate Mustang?

                                Originally posted by Paynts
                                Dago uses a 4 blade I think,
                                Hamilton-standard "cuffed" blades, as opposed to the H-S "paddle" blade also commonly found on Mustangs. Both are good blade airfoils, but still basically 40s technology. Anecdotal observation implies that the "cuffed" blade is superior. Dago uses it, Strega uses it in modified form, Voodoo uses it, and many others as well. The percentage of racing mustangs that run the cuffed prop is FAR higher than average mustang fleet- most of them use the paddle-blade prop.


                                Originally posted by Paynts
                                Red Baron used a cut down shacklton contra rotating 6 blade

                                I'm no expert, but I have consistently heard the Shackleton prop described as "stone age" in terms of airfoil design- WAY inferior to the H-S cuffed blade or the Aeroproducts blades that the Sea Fury contingent uses.

                                The elephant in the room (one of them anyway) when people start talking about contra-props is getting one that fits the nose of the engine you want *and* is compatible with a good modern blade airfoil.

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