C130's and fire fighting

[speeddemon]

Re: C130's and fire fighting

Two different problems, Wayne. The Electra 'harmonics' issue had to do with the engine mount--a single post-type frame. There was not enough lateral support for the engine, and if the prop got a little out of balance, it would start a divergent 'swirl' that would literally twist the prop and engine off the wing. Lockheed solved the problem on subsequent Electra's and P-3's by modifying the engine mounts. Problem was solved immediately, and never an issue again.

As far as the wing spar 'fire' theory. The P-3 and the C-130 are actually very similar airframes. I know that it sounds kind of weird, but we always joked that the Herks were just P-3's flying upside down. Same engines, similar systems, etc., and since they were both built by Lockheed, similar construction materials and techniques. The P-3 NATOPS addressed a 'wing fire' situation, which was directly traced back to an Air Force C-130 that had a spar fire, and the spar failed within 89 seconds. It's been a while, but I think the 'wing fire' was one of the few emergencies where NATOPS recommended bailing out of the aircraft as opposed to trying to set it down somewhere 'controlled'.

[440_Magnum]

Re: C130's and fire fighting

I'm likely all wet here and am trying to shake my memory on the Electra problem but wasn't it a harmonics problem and not with the wing but with the tail... It was caused by the engine or prop combo, that I do remember but my fading memory cells are telling me that it was tail related.. Whichever though, I believe the two problems would be totally unrelated, as the Electra problem was with vibrations and fatigue and I think the -A model Herc is totally different.

Anybody?

Wayne

Ok, I'll walk out on a limb and relate my (hazy) memory.

IIRC, the Electra problem was rooted in a mounting structure for either the engine itself or an engine accessory. The mount was susceptible to a vibration that caused a "whirl flutter" mode in the whole engine mounting structure that eventually led to a fatigue failure. I have been told that this is not unlike the whirl-flutter failures that Beech 1900s have suffered in much more recent times. In both cases, a comparatively minor change in structure seems to have completely eliminated the problem. Now take this for what its worth- I only know what little I do about the Electra because a co-worker was involved in reconstructing the failure of a Beech 1900 engine mount by using the fact that the insulation of installed but not-connected wiring attached to unused channels of the voice recorder acted as a primitive microphone and detected the vibrations, and told me about the similarities to the Electra failures decades before.

I don't remember any connection with a problem in the tail... although there was a pretty bad old movie about a fictionall new airliner with a flaw in the tail structure (can't remember the name of it now).

Although the Electra tragedies (and the fact that it was a turboprop introduced too late into the dawn of the jet age) cut the Electra's career as an airliner short, I've got to say that the Electra/P3 airframe has *more* than proven itself rugged. They do things that would tear lesser airframes apart. I worry about what aircraft will be available to serve as retardant bombers when the Electras and Invaders finally do get too old- those airplanes are in a class by themselves when it comes to flying through incredibly rough air such as is found in fire zones.

[kennsmithf2g]

Re: C130's and fire fighting

The Movie was a Jimmy Stewart movie,

I believe that it was "No Highway In The Sky"

Kenn

[Wilnit]

Re: C130's and fire fighting

The crew of T-130 did not need a spotter, the pilot, Steve Wass, had credentials for initial attack. I too lost a friend that day. I am a Deputy Sheriff in the neighboring state of Nevada and had to respond to the area for mutual aid. As I left my house for swingshift that day I watched T-130 fly past my house on the way to Walker to fight the fire. A while later I arrived in Walker and saw the tail section of T-130 lying in a vacant lot surrounded by fire. Steve Wass was in my Father's fourth grade class, he later became a pilot that could fly virtually everything. Later in life Steve taught my Father to fly, eventually getting his pilots license. I too had limited student time flying with Steve.

There are a couple of memorials in Walker along Hwy 395. Anytime you all are driving on Hwy 395 to/from Reno/L.A. please stop by and say hello and thank you to the crew. They along with us will greatly appreciate it.

Wayne, there is another site that contributes to the fund and aides the families of T-130. After my friend was killed I contacted the family and asked if I could have a t-shirt made in their honor. They agreed whole heartily. PLEASE, I DO NOT RECIEVE ANY GRATUETIES FROM THIS, I WANTED TO HONOR A FRIEND ONLY................

The site is http://www.shirtsigns.com/airattack/t130.html

Once again, I DO NOT GET ANY KICK BACKS FROM THE SALES OF THESE SHIRTS....

Thanks,

Will R. Lynch

[ramp mouse]

Re: C130's and fire fighting

Where is the memorial on the 395?, would like to stop & reflect a while.

[AAFO_WSagar]

Re: C130's and fire fighting

Thanks for the link Will...

What county are you DS in?? My brother-in-law used to be a Douglas county DS. I rode with him one night way back, maybe even in the 80's. We did Tahoe for a night shift. Not much happened but it was a neat evening's "work" for me.

[speeddemon]

Re: C130's and fire fighting

The Movie was a Jimmy Stewart movie,

I believe that it was "No Highway In The Sky"

Kenn

Sure you're not thinking of "Fate is the Hunter" with Glenn Ford?

[Apteryx]

Re: C130's and fire fighting

Sure you're not thinking of "Fate is the Hunter" with Glenn Ford?

That wasn't a structural problem, it was a beverage holder problem, (and a dead engine).

Paul

[speeddemon]

Re: C130's and fire fighting

That wasn't a structural problem, it was a beverage holder problem, (and a dead engine).

Paul

I guess that is what happens when you mount jet engines to the horizontal stablilizer of a DC-4, eh?

Haven't seen that movie in decades...but I do know that it was a shame they chose the title from Ernie Gann's excellent book of a totally different story.

[Wilnit]

Re: C130's and fire fighting

Ramp Mouse,

The memorial is along the east edge of N/B Hwy 395 north of the town of Walker. There are three white crosses then north of that there is a cement slab with a plaque attached to it. I think there is even a fire hose rolled up at the bottom that someone placed there........ If you're familiar with the famous Walker Burger, then the memorial is north of that as you head out of town towards Nevada.

Wayne,

Yes I work for the Douglas County Sheriff's Department in Gardnerville, Minden and Lake Tahoe, NV. I think you mentioned your ride along once before, a lot has changed since the 80's though.......

WRL

[AAFO_WSagar]

Re: C130's and fire fighting

I think you mentioned your ride along once before, a lot has changed since the 80's though.......

Yea... LOL.. including the length of time that I remember things.. .

[Dialtapper]

Re: C130's and fire fighting

[QUOTE=speeddemon]Two different problems, Wayne. The Electra 'harmonics' issue had to do with the engine mount--a single post-type frame. There was not enough lateral support for the engine, and if the prop got a little out of balance, it would start a divergent 'swirl' that would literally twist the prop and engine off the wing. Lockheed solved the problem on subsequent Electra's and P-3's by modifying the engine mounts. Problem was solved immediately, and never an issue again.

Speaking of the Electra, are there any aviation/airline geeks out there that know what two major contributions the L-188 made that are in every airliner today?

[AKA HITMAN]

Re: C130's and fire fighting

[QUOTE=Dialtapper]

Two different problems, Wayne. The Electra 'harmonics' issue had to do with the engine mount--a single post-type frame. There was not enough lateral support for the engine, and if the prop got a little out of balance, it would start a divergent 'swirl' that would literally twist the prop and engine off the wing. Lockheed solved the problem on subsequent Electra's and P-3's by modifying the engine mounts. Problem was solved immediately, and never an issue again.

Speaking of the Electra, are there any aviation/airline geeks out there that know what two major contributions the L-188 made that are in every airliner today?

More accomadating toilet seats???

[jarrodeu]

Re: C130's and fire fighting

Air & Space did an article on flutter a few years back. It also discused the problems with the electra.

Jarrod

[Unregistered]

"BLACK" airframe hours

Read awhile back in Aviation Week , a nice multi-page article with photos of wing box, spar, etc photos that showed failure points.

The summation of the article was that the failures were inline with flight hours loads alot more that what the log books reported.

The author opionin was a/c flight hours not reported, i.e. black missions... et al.

Is this a common thing or what.

!!

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