Updates from Reno...

[AirRaceFan]

Re: Updates from Reno...

I think the logistics of actually operating an air race for public viewing in the black rock desert would be prohibitively difficult. It might a bit easier to operate from Stead and fly out to a black rock course, but any maydays setting down in the desert would probably be there for a while. Community support / sponsorship / etc. would likely be problematic, and ground displays would be in a fairly hostile environment. It definitely wouldn't be the same event, and folks wouldn't have the opportunity to check out their favorites in the pits.

[knot4u]

Re: Updates from Reno...

I'd imagine you could probably get a few racers to show up for an invite only event in the middle of nowhere. They'd have to bring everything they needed with them including food, water, sanitation and housing (that's basically the description of an RV village). There is no rational reason to build a race plane, no one can justify it. Humans have always raced, on foot, on horses, on chariots, in cars and eventually in airplanes. It takes a certain kind of person to do these things and it's not for the money. Cleveland ended after Odoms accident and air racing disappeared for 25 years, it came back in the high desert of Nevada. No one is ever going to stop these people from competing, they're drawn together like magnets. No one cares how fast your airplane is if all you do is fly around by yourself. There's a lot of ego involved and we haven't progressed much.

[1:1 Scale]

Re: Updates from Reno...

I've thought about this a little bit over the last few years, and I don't know if it could be made to work with the spectators, but it seems to me, the best thing to do for the longevity of the sport would be to change the venue. With all the continued growth that always seems to plague airports, it's not a matter of if, but when.

Relocating to someplace like the Black Rock desert where there's nothing to hit but the ground would be the safest option. Put the crowd and pits in the center of the course. Getting the fans to the location could be a challenge, and providing services, shade, etc. would be another challenge, but I think it would be the best option to ensure that the only people risking their lives are the people flying the planes.

For the record, I would HATE the inevitable dust and dirt, but I can't think of anyplace else that would provide the safety. Maybe Tonopah?

[AirRaceFan]

Re: Updates from Reno...

I share the concerns about data being provided to external agencies/governments. And I especially share concerns about how the FAA treats (for example) psychiatric meds, which "forces" pilots to fly unmedicated. At the same time, I believe that a reasonable compromise is possible. As an example (and I am just throwing this out for discussion sake), all logged data could be anonymized and provided to a doctor in aggregate. If the doctor sees no issues, the data is destroyed. On the other hand, if the doctor sees an issue, they could report that "log W14, the pilot damn near passed out" and then RARA can take it from there. It is human nature that some humans are more willing to take risks than others, and some are more willing to ignore the signs of risk than others.

I do not think it unreasonable for RARA to establish a baseline level of safety in this area. Ultimately, the air races themselves are at risk. #29 impacted the ground with around 500mph horizontal velocity - and it traveled across the ground for 4+ seconds after the initial contact. 500mph is 733 feet per second. SO, in just the first two seconds after the initial contact, #29 covered over a quarter of a mile of ground. Had #29 carved out a path 25 feet wide and a quarter of a mile long through the crowd, we'd all already know that 2022 was our last year.

A fist bump and a tip of the hat is not enough assurance that someone is safe to pilot an aircraft over a crowd at 500mph. I say this as someone who wants to see Reno 2023 happen with another 500+mph jet class, and as someone optimistic enough to still hope to see #77 back on course some day at 480+.....

The races have to get smarter.

[Race5]

Re: Updates from Reno...

I for one would definitely not want the pilot health info recorded and logged etc by the government governing body etc. it?s already Every pilots responsibility to make sure they are safe for flight. Adding some health monitoring would do nothing but push out more people. Look at how the FAA treats different meds etc. to say we need More government oversight by monitoring the pilots etc will do nothing but kill the sport. In every accident we do not need to change laws, make not harder to do etc. i think In this case , if what I believe happened is true, the ?fix? is nothing more than requiring some additional training for the pilots when they get out of line and want to turn back into the course.

I agree. Internal oversight is one thing, but the last thing we need is more oversight from the Feds. Or any other outside agency.

[Lotahp1]

Re: Updates from Reno...

I for one would definitely not want the pilot health info recorded and logged etc by the government governing body etc. it?s already Every pilots responsibility to make sure they are safe for flight. Adding some health monitoring would do nothing but push out more people. Look at how the FAA treats different meds etc. to say we need More government oversight by monitoring the pilots etc will do nothing but kill the sport. In every accident we do not need to change laws, make not harder to do etc. i think In this case , if what I believe happened is true, the ?fix? is nothing more than requiring some additional training for the pilots when they get out of line and want to turn back into the course.

[V1670]

Re: Updates from Reno...

I don't have an answer to the "how fast is too fast" question.

I do think it's time to look at g-suit requirements for aircraft above some defined average g-load or speed. For example (I'm throwing numbers out here) - maybe an average g-load of 4g or speed above 425mph would require anti-G pants, with some higher limit (475mph?) requiring a full anti-G suit.

I know this will rub some folks wrong - but mandatory counseling and monitoring of this elite group of pilots during the week to make sure they are healthy and staying well hydrated (etc.) may also be part of the response to this event. I also wonder about health monitoring while on the race course - it's certainly possible technologically to monitor and datalog various health vitals during each race, and then let a doctor download and analyze the data after a race. If a pilot was starting to struggle, this might help identify the issue before it becomes critical. G tolerance and health are related.

As much as I LOVE Reno's go-fast gearhead culture and my fond memories of (for example) #77's team thrashing to get the Bear into the air and out front, there has to be an honest and heartfelt responsibility to the entire air race community to do what they do as safely as practical. GG 2011 was a wakeup call and one who's lessons we need to visit and revisit every year.

Had #29 went in on a different piece of real estate, this accident could have been a million times more tragic. As awful as it was, it could have been far worse.

Edit: just to be clear. I am in no way trying to imply that the teams/pilots don't already have a heartfelt responsibility to be safe. Nor am I trying to imply any cause to the #29 accident. I'm only commenting on what I see as areas that can be improved and made safer, based on "holes" in safety that seem to be illuminated right now.

Amen, AirRaceFan: you got my vote! We ALL love the sport, and keeping those safe who do the driving is paramount.

[Lockheed Bob]

Re: Updates from Reno...

Well said AirRaceFan. With all the latest technology a lot of what you said could be implemented with an extra cost. Raise the purses in the name of safety.

[AirRaceFan]

Re: Updates from Reno...

I don't have an answer to the "how fast is too fast" question.

I do think it's time to look at g-suit requirements for aircraft above some defined average g-load or speed. For example (I'm throwing numbers out here) - maybe an average g-load of 4g or speed above 425mph would require anti-G pants, with some higher limit (475mph?) requiring a full anti-G suit.

I know this will rub some folks wrong - but mandatory counseling and monitoring of this elite group of pilots during the week to make sure they are healthy and staying well hydrated (etc.) may also be part of the response to this event. I also wonder about health monitoring while on the race course - it's certainly possible technologically to monitor and datalog various health vitals during each race, and then let a doctor download and analyze the data after a race. If a pilot was starting to struggle, this might help identify the issue before it becomes critical. G tolerance and health are related.

As much as I LOVE Reno's go-fast gearhead culture and my fond memories of (for example) #77's team thrashing to get the Bear into the air and out front, there has to be an honest and heartfelt responsibility to the entire air race community to do what they do as safely as practical. GG 2011 was a wakeup call and one who's lessons we need to visit and revisit every year.

Had #29 went in on a different piece of real estate, this accident could have been a million times more tragic. As awful as it was, it could have been far worse.

Edit: just to be clear. I am in no way trying to imply that the teams/pilots don't already have a heartfelt responsibility to be safe. Nor am I trying to imply any cause to the #29 accident. I'm only commenting on what I see as areas that can be improved and made safer, based on "holes" in safety that seem to be illuminated right now.

[GRNDP51]

But I would like say something about one of the questions that need to be answered. Namely, the impact of this (and Sherman's accident) could have on insurance premiums and how that could be the major influencing factor in the future of the sport. I think I mentioned in the Miss America thread that Brent told me that he has to have three separate insurance policies to race at Reno. The required race insurance for Reno is already very, very expensive. With recent events it will only get more so and there is going to be a point at which the burden of expensive insurance premiums will become a huge consideration for those wishing to compete. To ignore that, or its potential to adversely impact future events is ill advised at best. I will say with Brent, his desire to get Miss America 2.0 on the course and compete at Reno overrides the cost consideration... he's got a goal, he's committed to see that dream through presently. That's presently... next year has yet to be determined.

At the very least, RARA has already changed the dates on airrace.org to reflect 2023 so they seem to think this won't be an issue. The racer's insurance themselves, definitely a question mark.

[Pylon1_Mark]

Re: I'd Like To Thank:

Everyone for being grounded and unless I'm missing reading posts, restrained during a very difficult time for our sport!

Obviously there are a lot questions that need to be answered..

I agree Wayne - everyone has been well grounded thus far during this tuff time. As everyone probably knows, my wife passed recently so I know what a loss like this does to those close to them. It sucks, plain and simple so I hope nothing I say below diminishes from that - it's not intended to.

I'm not going to speculate in public about what I saw in the video's & other information on the accident - the NTSB will in time come to their conclusions & recommendations. RARA will act on those and probably make modifications the PRS training syllabus - it's really hard to say at this juncture what will happen as a result of the NTSB findings, maybe nothing. The sport itself can and will recover from this, of that I have no doubt.

But I would like say something about one of the questions that need to be answered. Namely, the impact of this (and Sherman's accident) could have on insurance premiums and how that could be the major influencing factor in the future of the sport. I think I mentioned in the Miss America thread that Brent told me that he has to have three separate insurance policies to race at Reno. The required race insurance for Reno is already very, very expensive. With recent events it will only get more so and there is going to be a point at which the burden of expensive insurance premiums will become a huge consideration for those wishing to compete. To ignore that, or its potential to adversely impact future events is ill advised at best. I will say with Brent, his desire to get Miss America 2.0 on the course and compete at Reno overrides the cost consideration... he's got a goal, he's committed to see that dream through presently. That's presently... next year has yet to be determined.

[glider90]

Re: Updates from Reno...

Wayne, I know the video you are talking about, and that is either something in the background, or a video artifact of some kind. I was shown a very clear still photo of the aircraft just before impact, and it very clearly showed all of the control surfaces were in tact, and still attached to the aircraft.

I saw both, and I agree with you Race5, whatever that red rectangle is, it does not appear to be an aileron. It shows up four seconds before the crash in the RARA live feed shot video that has been republished by others.
There is a video shot from outside the course that is much closer to the accident aircraft. It picks up two seconds before the crash, but both ailerons are clearly on the airplane all the way down.

That red speck is an artifact, background item, *maybe* something off the airplane, but not the right aileron.

[V1670]

Re: Updates from Reno...

I have to ask myself.. "How Fast is Too Fast?"


I'm not trying to scrape on sore spots, I just agree that KNOWING what happened is important to our mental health looking at ways to stop it from happening again should be encouraged

Amen to that. I look to this site as a resource for KNOWLEDGABLE input/observation regarding the incident. And, like others, I'm "laying low" trying to avoid "armchair quaterbacking" on the issue.

Been going to the races for 50 years. And Wayne, you bring up a good point...or question:" How Fast is TOO Fast"..to which I might add "for the site". It's been discussed before about the evolutionary changes to the course. I was reading Tegler's book "Gentlemen, You Have a Race" and in it, he mentioned the Unlimited course as 9.8 miles. What is it now? Down to 8 miles? You tighten-up the course, that just adds to the g-loading. ok.....enough armchair-****.

[Race5]

Re: Updates from Reno...

I'm grateful for your understanding and support. I try very hard to let our members chat openly and "get it off their chest"

Sadly, we've all been here before, more than once. The balls out "do some of that pilot ****" that the racers bring to Reno and have made it what it is should not be allowed to contribute to its end.

In light of the fact that I watched a pretty clear video capture yesterday that showed an aileron come off just after/simultaneously with the knife edge ultimate decent, as well as discussions with those who have been involved with Air Racing from the beginning and before! I have to ask myself.. "How Fast is Too Fast?"


I'm not trying to scrape on sore spots, I just agree that KNOWING what happened is important to our mental health looking at ways to stop it from happening again should be encouraged

Wayne, I know the video you are talking about, and that is either something in the background, or a video artifact of some kind. I was shown a very clear still photo of the aircraft just before impact, and it very clearly showed all of the control surfaces were in tact, and still attached to the aircraft.

[AAFO_WSagar]

Re: Updates from Reno...

i hate superstition, but I can't help but think.. 2001, 2011, we missed 2020 due to covid so 2021 was kind of 2020 so this year was kind of like 2021....

after retiring from reno in 2013 i considered going out there this year, i am glad i didn't, i don't think could have handled being there for another one like this.

blue skies and tailwinds, rest in peace jet pilot.

wayne, your not being a board nazi, the people here are more like family than most internet groups. for the most part, this group is very knowledgeable about aviation, there will be a time for a civil respectful discussion of this accident, today is just not the day.

I'm grateful for your understanding and support. I try very hard to let our members chat openly and "get it off their chest"

Sadly, we've all been here before, more than once. The balls out "do some of that pilot ****" that the racers bring to Reno and have made it what it is should not be allowed to contribute to its end.

In light of the fact that I watched a pretty clear video capture yesterday that showed an aileron come off just after/simultaneously with the knife edge ultimate decent, as well as discussions with those who have been involved with Air Racing from the beginning and before! I have to ask myself.. "How Fast is Too Fast?"


I'm not trying to scrape on sore spots, I just agree that KNOWING what happened is important to our mental health looking at ways to stop it from happening again should be encouraged