NASCAR STYLE SPOTTERS ON THE COURSE??

[AAFO_WSagar]

Since I read this on Farcebook, I posted the following there..

Bout RENO 2021 Unlimited Gold Race... NASCAR style spotters reporting to pilots?
OK, I heard what I would have to call a rumor that some of you were listening to the crew/pilot conversations with Dreadnaught on Sunday telling Dread pilot where Doc Hisey in Miss America were and when he was attempting to pass, where to be to block said pass....
That said, again, at this point, still a rumor but: IF this is true... do you think it fair? Have any other teams done this in the past? Is it safe?
If you are the person who originally posted that you were on the correct frequency to hear this... would you please check in?

Personally, I feel if this is actually happening, it needs to be talked about for sure!

Your thoughts and.... if anyone was on Dread's crew/pilot freq, please check in!

[Desertdawg]

Re: NASCAR STYLE SPOTTERS ON THE COURSE??

Wayne,

After this you should arrange a similar style interview with Joel.

Would be great to start capturing thoughts from the racers while the memories are fresh.

[AAFO_WSagar]

Re: NASCAR STYLE SPOTTERS ON THE COURSE??

Wayne,

After this you should arrange a similar style interview with Joel.

Would be great to start capturing thoughts from the racers while the memories are fresh.

I'd be totally willing, though would feel no obligation to do so... I've never met any of the Sanders racing guys.. for one reason or other, perhaps my inherent shyness, any attempt I've made to personally approach any of them, after the usual "Hi I'm Wayne Sagar with AAFO.COM" has been met with a blank look and shrug of shoulders... I will not say which member it was but one of the higher ups who showed me that reaction...

ahem:

Reluctantly, I am a public figure, pretty much all the players know of me... I'm completely willing to talk with anyone who wants to get whatever publicity they can get by doing so... however... I'm a pretty proud sort and don't usually put my nose where it's not welcome...

[wingman]

Re: NASCAR STYLE SPOTTERS ON THE COURSE??

There has always been crew-pilot communication. Kerch used to come on the radio once per lap to say something like "Dago Plus 3 seconds, telemetry good". Which he always felt was all the pilot needed. He did this at least from Crocker's airplane on. Rare Bear had a similar arrangement (when the radios were working decently, which was not always the case). Other teams have in recent years expanded this considerably -- Voodoo after Kerch apparently had a ground person suggesting things like running wide on Pylon 4 to push Dawson out and disrupt his path. My impression is that this sort of communication and stategy has become more aggressive in the last decade. All this is certainly legal, and is arguably ethical -- similar things are done in all high level motorsports. For Air Racing I wonder about safety, if it becomes common to maneuver outside the line established in earlier laps. A huge deal in Air Racing is predictability -- unexpected moves can have real consequences. If the leader does something unexpected there can be all sorts of cascading events. This could be a different sort of racing...

Regarding Joel -- I'd love to see an interview. The Sanders family is distinctly clannish, but Brian at least has in the past been quite willing to grant interviews. I've never met Joel, but my impression is that he is a lot more approachable than his father in law and might well be willing. I'd say give it a try. Rejection, if it happens, is really no big deal -- it happens to everybody in the media occasionally...

Neal

[GRNDP51]

Re: NASCAR STYLE SPOTTERS ON THE COURSE??

Since I read this on Farcebook, I posted the following there..



Personally, I feel if this is actually happening, it needs to be talked about for sure!

Your thoughts and.... if anyone was on Dread's crew/pilot freq, please check in!

Knowing what a Sea Fury can do to a Mustang in its wake, I REALLY hope this isn't true. It's beyond unsportsmanlike conduct, this is plain endangerment to other pilots. I have never had first hand experience with what's discussed in race pilot briefings, but I would think that intentionally changing your line to block a pass is grounds for having your race license revoked?

My other concern which doesn't look to have happened was Dennis and Sherman flying "looser" lines after Dreadnought lapped them and Miss America was coming up behind. Brent was close enough to Dreadnought that any loose lines would've affected both of them, but who knows how that could've played out if Brent was further behind.

[wingman]

Re: NASCAR STYLE SPOTTERS ON THE COURSE??

How would you prove it was intentional -- we're already having pilots penalized for stuff based on interpretation by officials of difficult rules, such as altitude restrictions and some of the deadlines. Changes in racing line can be very subtle, and can happen for many reasons other than blocking an opponent. Trying to enforce something like this could quickly become an ugly can of worms.

Neal

[GRNDP51]

Re: NASCAR STYLE SPOTTERS ON THE COURSE??

How would you prove it was intentional -- we're already having pilots penalized for stuff based on interpretation by officials of difficult rules, such as altitude restrictions and some of the deadlines. Changes in racing line can be very subtle, and can happen for many reasons other than blocking an opponent. Trying to enforce something like this could quickly become an ugly can of worms.

Neal

I mean from the initial post if someone has recordings that blatantly have crew members saying where Brent is so Joel could block them, then that's more than enough proof of misconduct.

[AAFO_WSagar]

Re: NASCAR STYLE SPOTTERS ON THE COURSE??

How would you prove it was intentional -- we're already having pilots penalized for stuff based on interpretation by officials of difficult rules, such as altitude restrictions and some of the deadlines. Changes in racing line can be very subtle, and can happen for many reasons other than blocking an opponent. Trying to enforce something like this could quickly become an ugly can of worms.

Neal

As a "reporter" it's not up to me to "prove" anything. I "report" what I read and hear and try to get to the bottom of it. USUALLY it would be reporting on the progress of something positive like a new airplane or mods or something.

This particular situation, especially if it involves other flying race pilots on same team working to block another player then it's just damned unsafe and needs to be addressed... in my humble opinion anyway! Also, if the Sanders are working as a team, why would any single player having to fly there for some distance even want to come play?

I know I've opened a possibly ugly can of worms.. but I'm willing to do my best to tell the story.. I started in all this as a "story teller" I learned to be a decent photographer in the process.. I'm at the end of my career and pretty much just another old dude trying to survive the pain of growing old. I do not worry one bit at this time if my actions might close doors that at one time I'd protect by keeping my trap shut at times..

In short, I have NOTHING to lose by getting to the truth. I saw the races from a completely different perspective this year and saw things I'd never seen before that puzzled me. Then read words from those on the pilot freq's that frequed me out!

Maybe Doc will put all this to bed with a simple BULL**** call. If what it looks like might have happened, essentially, a "team" effort made it so difficult for him to compete that he's potentially DONE with RENO...

We shall see!

[Desertdawg]

Re: NASCAR STYLE SPOTTERS ON THE COURSE??

I mean from the initial post if someone has recordings that blatantly have crew members saying where Brent is so Joel could block them, then that's more than enough proof of misconduct.

Oh let's not even go there. So many variables, there is traffic to consider, could be looking for a better line due to turbulence, etc. Just no proof when exactly the communication was referring too, things change very fast on a course going 400+ mph and pilots have to make snap decisions.
Joel has done this long enough and I think he is a good racer and has some class. Trying to make a story online is like Trump saying he won the election, after the fact. And yes I voted for and still think that's lame.

[AAFO_WSagar]

Re: NASCAR STYLE SPOTTERS ON THE COURSE??

Oh let's not even go there. So many variables, there is traffic to consider, could be looking for a better line do to turbulence, etc.
Joel has done this long enough and I think he is a good racer and has some class. Trying to make a story online is like Trump saying he won the election, after the fact. And yes I voted for and still think that's lame.

Sorry you feel that way... "trying to make a story online" really?

I'm just talking here Hans... relaying what I read, I could care less about "creating a story online"... I just don't like unfair practices, IF they exist.

[Desertdawg]

Re: NASCAR STYLE SPOTTERS ON THE COURSE??

Sorry you feel that way... "trying to make a story online" really?

I'm just talking here Hans... relaying what I read, I could care less about "creating a story online"... I just don't like unfair practices, IF they exist.

Wayne, I was referring to this comment, absolutely nothing being slung at you.

"mean from the initial post if someone has recordings that blatantly have crew members saying where Brent is so Joel could block them, then that's more than enough proof of misconduct."

it was seems that until there is actual proof this could be taken that we are throwing dirt on their win, right.

[GRNDP51]

Re: NASCAR STYLE SPOTTERS ON THE COURSE??

Wayne, I was referring to this comment, absolutely nothing being slung at you.

"mean from the initial post if someone has recordings that blatantly have crew members saying where Brent is so Joel could block them, then that's more than enough proof of misconduct."

it was seems that until there is actual proof this could be taken that we are throwing dirt on their win, right.

There's no dirt being thrown here Dawg. This guy making FB comments could be full of it, but if he isn't then we're opening up something that needs addressed.

[wingman]

Re: NASCAR STYLE SPOTTERS ON THE COURSE??

I'm with Dawg on this one (regarding stories in the media). I think it should be carefully discussed without any sensationalizing. The issue should be recognised and worked out by the pilots and contest and rules committees. It is much too potentially explosive to have non-pilots in the media wildly throwing theories and accusations around. None of us posting here (except the Doc, if he's reading this) are pilots or Racers. I don't know what it's like on the course at 400 mph and neither do the rest of us. I can't judge what's dangerous or safe.

To those who are around racing this is not a scoop, or in any sense new news. The issue has been around for some years now. I would hate for it to become a bigger issue than it has to be.

I'd be very interested in what Dr. Hisey has to say on the matter (or decides not to say).

Neal

[AAFO_WSagar]

Re: NASCAR STYLE SPOTTERS ON THE COURSE??

OK, from here out then, I guess, anything I say will just be media speculation...

If I'd not have "broken" this story.... would it ever be addressed???

I truly only brought it public so I could see if there actually is "evidence" i.e. someone who has a recording.

In my mind, air racing is a man against man sport.. I mean, the guy in the seat ahead is applying his knowledge of the pilot/s behind and adjusting his line to make himself wider, that's racing. Your earlier comment about crew to plane calls was as it should be, crew chief telling pilot stuff so he does not have to look down to see it, sure a comment on where the guy behind is from his viewpoint would not be out of order.

Having someone, either on the course flying, or on the ground spotting, telling you directly what the guy behind, who has been busting his ass trying to figure a way around and finds it, exactly what he's doing WHEN he starts to make his move.

Anyone can say what they want about creating a story or sensationalizing....

Just the facts Ma'm....

[wingman]

Re: NASCAR STYLE SPOTTERS ON THE COURSE??

We all need to remember, though, that "facts" and "evidence" can be VERY loose terms on the internet. We can say anything, and when it's down in print (so to speak) it looks like fact. If an internet citizen says something is fact and somebody disagrees and proves differently (they think) you end up in a typical Twitter brawl and nobody's better off. It would make more sense (if any sense can be made of something like this) to record some of the supposed conversations and let people make up their own minds.

"I heard that someone heard on the radio that someone was giving questionable information to someone on the racecourse, and that's obviously dangerous and should be illegal" is hardly a basis for a rational discussion...

Neal