The Deleted Thread

[AAFO_WSagar]

Couple days ago, I deleted a thread that I thought was probably going to go out of control from the moment I saw it.

One of the posters in the thread posted some things, that I'm calling, exaggeration of fact... now this person has stated on another site that he was banned for "stating the truth"... There's more to the story

Jimmy Leeward was a friend of mine and I just don't think I can sit still when I read what looks to be complete BS being written about him... I took my gloves off in that deleted thread and crossed a few lines that I'd not allow anyone to cross. I don't like to have that sort of turmoil on the main section of this basically G rated site.. I got pissed and pressed a point, I think it was going to be ugly... so.. I deleted the thread, nuked the membership of the person in question.

OK.. I guess I forgot about this gloves off section of this site.. since I can't post a response on the other site (maybe an old ban of my IP address?) and by not responding, I'd be allowing this person to further spew what I am calling him out as BULL$HIT and asking for where in the NTSB documents that he found his "quote"...

I'm moving it there, lifting the man's user ban, and hoping we can drop all the blood there in that section of the forum that is, somewhat, "you asked to be there so don't bitch about what you read".... private... so, here's the link to the thread... CLICK HERE TO READ DELETED THREAD if you don't have one of the, had to be requested, "hardcore" memberships to the section where you are bound not to quote what is said there.. you'll not see it...

Gauntlet thrown..... I still want to see where the quote came from!

[al baby]

Re: The Deleted Thread

Since I do not have access to the secret place where the thread continues, I will post this here.

If you listen to the Press Conference from 8/27/12 (playback available at link below) you will see several points made that support King's statements.

http://www.capitolconnection.net/capcon/ntsb/ntsb.htm#

Examples:
NN: equates to time on the video.

start 14:00
Listen to aileron deflection discussion
Left roll upset. RIGHT WING DOWN
Indicates badly trimmed ailerons.


40:00
Elevator counterweight
Heavily trimmed to keep nose down.

Significantly overbalanced.
tend to make elevator pitch up
overly sensitive pitch.

52:00
wrinkles on the fuselage discussion and severity of these wrinkles.

55:
discussion of power changes on VOS.
Could indicate earlier upset. Could be canopy issue, or could have felt the onset of later problem.

65:
Bob Weight - 25# on GG

81:
left tab link assembly

84: +
Cross Control discussion


My connection crapped out after 85m, but that's when they discussed the Cross Control issue.

If you haven't listen to the entire briefing, you should before you argue what was said and what it means. I know that King is an Aeronautics expert and believe his interpretation of the facts.

[Race5]

Re: The Deleted Thread

In Chip's defense, not only has he been to the races, but he is also an award winning crew chief on a former high level F1 aircraft.

[Big_Jim]

Re: The Deleted Thread

Correction...Championship winning crew chief. 1990.

[Bob]

Re: The Deleted Thread

If last sept you were able to read in the restricted forum (after the crash) then you already are in, I can enter and I believe most other regular members that were posting after the accident.

http://www.aafo.com/hangartalk/forumdisplay.php?f=24 is where it is located

spent some time reading the NTSB report, will have to listen to the conference but unles its in the report and in writing, I really dont care what the people speaking say.
Still cant understand why all these big important people with big inflated egos didnt step up and stop Jimmy if they all felt that the GG was dangerous. I suppose its really easy to do after the fact. Makes me wonder if Jimmy had done well what they would be saying.

[AirRaceFan]

Re: The Deleted Thread

How plausible would it be to have a trusted, highly experienced pilot test-fly new/unproven/questionable aircraft prior to their qualification to objectively determine if they fly safe and honest? Someone with the necessary experience and background (For example - Steve Hinton comes to mind??)

This could take any owner bias out of the equation, and give RARA more insight into what is being raced on the course. Maybe in time it could even help lower the insurance premiums which I understand are a significant factor in the races continuing...

I don't have access to the private forum, otherwise would have posted there.

[xmh53wrench]

Re: The Deleted Thread

I believe majority of you are missing Wayne's point.
"Page/Paragraph" that's all he's looking for in my opinion. Very simple answer to a very simple question. Or an acknowledgement that it was an "interpretation/exaggeration, maybe even sensationalism" of what the NTSB report actually said. If I am wrong, Wayne let me know.

[Golem]

Re: The Deleted Thread

spent some time reading the NTSB report, will have to listen to the conference but unles its in the report and in writing, I really dont care what the people speaking say.
Still cant understand why all these big important people with big inflated egos didnt step up and stop Jimmy if they all felt that the GG was dangerous. I suppose its really easy to do after the fact. Makes me wonder if Jimmy had done well what they would be saying.

Dear "Bob"
Thought I'd share this from a friend who can't post here...
=========
I know I'm probably just some big important person with an inflated ego, and I'm sure the fact that I am an aeronautical professional with an extensive flight logbook in GA and military really won't hold any water with your layman reading of the NTSB report. Nor do I expect that the fact that I have actually done post-crash analysis carry any weight either.

But irrespective of the above, let me offer a response to your post:

First, the NTSB report does indeed indicate that the control inputs for Race 177 were forward and right and that the mods to the aero controls were extensive. No, it doesn't use the exact words that King referenced--- "It wouldn't be prudent" (credit: Church Lady, SNL, ca 1990). But for anyone with even a shred of technical know how (which King has in spades btw) the evidence is crystal clear.

Second, and most importantly, let me address your comment about why nobody stood up and did something. The simple fact is that the ONLY PERSON WHO FLEW THAT A/C AND KNEW IT HAD ISSUES WAS JIMMY LEEWARD!!! Now the evidence presented in the NTSB report has highlighted the fact that these concerns should have been noted by the PIC. It is safe to say, that adding a qualified and un-biased test pilot to a well thought out and documented test program prior to arrival at Stead in Sept '11 would have been a reasonable and sound course of action. Unfortunately, the owner/pilot felt that he was fully capable of doing his own flight program (which btw has yet to be documented!) and we are all suffering the end result, but more importantly the victims of the incident and their surviving family paid the ultimate price.

Finally, Jimmy was a talented pilot and many of us enjoyed watching him run Cloud Dancer (despite the bag of sand he kept in it) over the years. But the fact remains that he failed both himself and his fans with 177.
=======

[AAFO_WSagar]

Re: The Deleted Thread

I believe majority of you are missing Wayne's point.
"Page/Paragraph" that's all he's looking for in my opinion. Very simple answer to a very simple question. Or an acknowledgement that it was an "interpretation/exaggeration, maybe even sensationalism" of what the NTSB report actually said. If I am wrong, Wayne let me know.

Thank you that someone "gets it".... King throws oil on a fire with his statement, it is sensational, period.

Some are painting Jimmy as some sort of careless monster who threw caution to the wind, I'm going to quote Mario Andretti,

If everything seems under control, you're not going fast enough

Isn't seeking and finding the edge what racing is all about? This is racing, it happens in the air, because of which, the NTSB and the FAA are involved when, probably the inevitable happens.. but it's still racing.

I'll just be happy if we can stick to the facts, they are probably enough in their own right, no extrapolation, or exaggeration is needed

[AAFO_WSagar]

Re: The Deleted Thread

In Chip's defense, not only has he been to the races, but he is also an award winning crew chief on a former high level F1 aircraft.

If true, my mistake, I thought I read in Chip's posts that he'd not been to the races.

[spacegrrrl]

Re: The Deleted Thread

It's strange how some folks get locked onto an issue and fail to rationally consider all the factors.

It seem clear that GG needed to be trimmed at speed. You can see from photos that pitch down trim was employed at speed. There also seems to be some evidence that GG needed some roll trim as well. But to somehow turn that into having fly with the stick racked into the corners is beyond exaggeration.

Some of these racers have quirks at speed. I remember a pilot of the Bear saying it needed unusual rudder input in the turns. Also many racers have exhibited fuselage oil canning at speed. Again, I think it is the Bear that exhibited dramatic twist of the forward fuselage at speed.

So those things on their own may very well be not out of the ordinary.

The bottom line is it was flutter in the end that caused the tragedy. Flutter was NOT caused by a twisting fuselage or the trim required at speed. Part of the NTSB study calculated the loads on the trim tabs at speed and cited nothing exceptional. So trying to call those other factors out with exaggerated statements served little purpose.

Yes, it sounds like GG had some other issues that could have been addressed to make GG better to fly at speed but there is no indication they are what caused this accident.

This wasn't Jimmy losing control of the airplane at speed because GG was a handful to fly, this was GG having a structural failure at speed due to structural issue leading to massive flutter at the worst possible moment.

Even if GG flew with wonderful neutral trim and had no evidence of fuselage twist at speed the flutter induced structural failure would have ended up causing the same terrible outcome.

In the end it wasn't about how GG was to fly, it was about how GG was modified and assembled.

Spacegrrrl

[AAFO_WSagar]

Re: The Deleted Thread

What does one need to do to get one of those hardcore-don't-bitch-etc. memberships? I'd like one, please.

Al, you're already (have been for a while) able to see the "hardcore" section.. folks only have to put in a request.. can't remember where it is, but then that shows up in my user cp and I can acccpe you into it.. but, again, you are and have been in that group for a while I think..

Wayne

[MRussell]

Re: The Deleted Thread

Yes, it sounds like GG had some other issues that could have been addressed to make GG better to fly at speed but there is no indication they are what caused this accident.

This wasn't Jimmy losing control of the airplane at speed because GG was a handful to fly, this was GG having a structural failure at speed due to structural issue leading to massive flutter at the worst possible moment.

[clipped, speculation]

In the end it wasn't about how GG was to fly, it was about how GG was modified and assembled.

Spacegrrrl

Very well put; for once we agree

The GG team seems to have simply run out of development time in several ways. Time to build her strong and straight, time to test her to prove she was as strong and straight as possible. We've often seen other teams run out of time as well... some went racing in September, others had to wait for next year.

Frankly if the GG team had been given a careful look at the photos the NTSB (and we) have now examined, who knows if they would have continued to race her last year, or if they would have gone back to the workshop like a certain Yak team?

Jimmy sincerely wanted to fly a safe airplane; most of us knew him well enough to assume that as fact.