Miss Gianna Wake Turbulence Video

[daveflyshi]

Re: Miss Gianna Wake Turbulence Video

I still get chills, a month and a half later. Thanks for posting the video, as it really reminds me of how close it was. Great flying. But more important, Great finish considering all that you had to go through to get it. Can't wait to see you fly next year.

dave

[Apteryx]

Re: Miss Gianna Wake Turbulence Video

Watching this makes me again consider the contributing factors that caused RARA to place a 4500 lb. weight restriction on Unlimited racers. Jeff.

Jeff-
Although weight is certainly any issue, the incident was an error on Jeff's part, thankfully with a good outcome. Although weight is certainly an issue, it's no different then a driver going into a corner TOO fast, lines, positioning and speeds, are all part of ANY racings equation. Not to knock Jeff, mistakes happen, and he had the skill to recover, successfully.

Paul

[srpatterson]

Re: Miss Gianna Wake Turbulence Video

Jeff-
Although weight is certainly any issue, the incident was an error on Jeff's part, thankfully with a good outcome. Although weight is certainly an issue, it's no different then a driver going into a corner TOO fast, lines, positioning and speeds, are all part of ANY racings equation. Not to knock Jeff, mistakes happen, and he had the skill to recover, successfully.

Paul

Paul,

I think you may have been confused by my closing sentence in the post above. My last sentence, "Good hands, Jeff" is a compliment to the pilot, Jeffrey Lo. I did not sign my post, as I felt my forum name more than identified me.

In any case I strongly disagree with you that the incident in question was in any way an error on Jeff's part. Your analogy comparing an air race plane encountering wake turbulence to a race car driver entering a corner at too high a speed is completly false and misleading, besides just being a bonehead thing to say. I wish I could decide if you're dumb or just plane stupid, so I guess I'll just settle on both.

No hard feelings Paul, it's just that you're wrong and a bit too smug about an incident that almost killed a very good air race pilot. Maybe you could describe your own reaction to encountering wake turbulence at Reno, as I would be fascinated to hear your version of how race pilots "make mistakes", as you put it.

[AAFO_WSagar]

Re: Miss Gianna Wake Turbulence Video

Paul, you're my good online buddy but.. .how can you say Jeff made a mistake? (getting into the cockpit of a racing plane??)

I know you're one of the good one's so I'm not going to get all uptight...

I too can see how we almost lost another one...

I'd like to know how you feel Jeff goofed here??

Wayne

[Apteryx]

Re: Miss Gianna Wake Turbulence Video

Paul,besides just being a bonehead thing to say. I wish if I could decide if you're dumb or just plain stupid, so I guess I'll just settle on both.... bit too smug about an incident that almost killed a very good air race pilot.

A little harsh, and "smug" certainly doesn't apply. I know a little bit more about the incident, then you might have decerned from the video. A pilot since '71 (although grounded now), and a crew member for 25+ years, (cars and airplane), I think I'm entitled to an opinion without being insulted. And yes VERY good pilots, sometimes make mistakes, we've all seen it, some with tragic results, THANKFULLY not in this incident. I like Jeff, as well as many of the pilots who have made similar mistakes, and maybe a 'seasoned' race pilot would be better to explain, but there are places you just don't go.

The crux of my response was to the comment about the weight differential in Unlimiteds, having talked to several race pilots, in that regard. I understand it, but find it more political then safety oriented, and don't like the restriction.

Wayne, check your PM's

Paul

[Race 29]

Re: Miss Gianna Wake Turbulence Video

Ok, so maybe my opinion doesn't really amount to a "hill of beans" (never really understood that saying) but maybe I can put it another way with a better explaination. First let me qualify. I'm an overwhelmingly disapointed, diabeticly grounded would be future race pilot, who has better than 10 years racing motorcycles on some of the best road tracks in the world. In other words, I couldn't tell you much about accually racing airplanes, but I know a little about racing on terra firma.

The fatal flaw I see in your theory is that when a "driver" goes into a corner too hot, it's obviously an error because he/she can see the corner. They know the distance, setup a braking marker, downshift, and do the deed. Sometimes, for whatever reason, later than they'd like, a little more speed than they can handle, IE: "too hot". I'm guilty of it WAY more times than I'd like to admit!! I seriously doubt that Jeff "saw" the turbulence. What purpose would that serve? I think Jeff did a stellar job on something that was totally unexpected. I really don't think you can compare the two. I'm not knocking you, I just think your analogy doesn't really apply. I really don't think weight has all that much to do with it either. I seem to remember just a couple years back when Dago Red (piloted by Bruce Lockwood) got into Dreadnaught's propwash rounding pylon one, just about made me mess myself. It was featured on on one of the Skyfire tapes. Dago's right wingtip went from about 12:30 to 4 o'clock in less than a second!! Bruce saved it, and not one person said it was Bruce's fault.

I'm not bustin' anyone's chops. I just think Jeff Lo did what many other pilots wished they could have....given a second chance. The first part of that video really reminded me of Bob Downey. Not too many people can say the "Ol' Tiger" was a bad pilot! I think Jeff did A-OK.

Race 29

[FlyinLo]

Re: Miss Gianna Wake Turbulence Video

There's been a lot of discussion about whether or not I screwed up flying the line I did. Maybe I did, maybe I didn't. You can't see the wakes, you're just judging the traffic in front of you and guessing where it might get interesting. Yes, there was a safer line that was higher, wider and slower. On that particular Sunday I elected to fly the lower, tighter and faster line I had flown many times at Reno. We were racing in the gold final after all. I caught a real nasty wake and you've all seen the result. I just hope that by putting that video up here, that maybe another pilot or two will learn something that may save them someday. I got a lot of attaboys and pats on the back after I was back on the ground, but the thing I most enjoyed hearing was a couple of other race pilots asking me where I got my aerobatic training because after they saw my recovery they thought some serious training in unusual attitude recoveries might be in order.

[AAFO_WSagar]

Re: Miss Gianna Wake Turbulence Video

Once again Jeff, I'll say, if your'e not a part of the training regime at PRS already, you sure should be!

Whatever fueled your decision to fly the line you did and whether it was wrong or right not-withstanding, you flew one hell of a race, including the part where you saved your bacon with some really outstanding VERY low level akro!

My somewhat aviation educated, non ticket holding hat is certainly off to you!

Wayne

[srpatterson]

Re: Miss Gianna Wake Turbulence Video

Sorry to have been so harsh to Paul in my earlier post, but I will stick by my opinion that Jeff did nothing wrong. It's an air race, not a parade, and as such you have to fly as fast and agressive a line as possible. That does not mean lining up 20 ft. directly behind the guy you're chasing down (which would be a mistake), but rather trying to fly his same line at a different altitude.

I accept the fact that I am not a "seasoned" race pilot, but I have raced at Reno and experienced the wake from other racers. You can't see it, and often it catches you when you least expect it. I understand Paul that you are a pilot and that you have been around racing for a long time, but I believe your view of Jeff is wrong. Sorry to have gotten upset earlier, but I tend not to respond well when someone on the ground is critical of a pilot's performance (especially when that pilot's life was on the line). I base my opinion on the fact that as a warbird pilot before coming to the air races I had to be educated in wake turbulence at Reno in the only way possible, by racing. Everything else is just speculation.

I've had many discussions with other Unlimited pilots (including our late President) who felt that a small homebuilt racer would "be nothing but confetti" if they got behind a strong wake from one or more Unlimited racers. I believe this is the reason for the weight restriction imposed by RARA, as opposed to a political decision.

Steve

[spacegrrrl]

Re: Miss Gianna Wake Turbulence Video

It isn't absolute weight that is the issue in dealing with turbulence. It is wing loading. I believe that Dave Morss said that the Mustang like Parker's was very well behaved in the wake turbulence.

Michele

[srpatterson]

Re: Miss Gianna Wake Turbulence Video

You may well be correct Michele, I'm just passing along that I've never heard anyone from NAG/Unlimited say that it was anything other than a safety issue.

[Apteryx]

Re: Miss Gianna Wake Turbulence Video

Yes, there was a safer line that was higher, wider and slower.

Steve-
That was the ONLY point I tried to make. I did not say he did anything WRONG. It was a judgement call, and had Jeff followed the "safer" coarse, he probably would have won the race. I am not blaming him for an aggressive move, either.
If it's not an "act of God", I chose to call it an error, matter of semantics. The salient point, was that until proven unsafe, the weight restrictions should be taken case by case.
As for advising pilots of an unsafe condition, that IS the crews job, ego and testosterone, do not always lead to wise decisions. TRUST ME.

Cordially, Paul

See Wayne, I can play nice

[srpatterson]

Re: Miss Gianna Wake Turbulence Video

All fair points Paul, and I'm sorry if I misunderstood the intent of your comments. It's often difficult on an internet forum to understand someone's meaning without the benefit of first hand, direct, vocal communication.

As for the issue of safe/unsafe concerning the RARA Unlimited weight restrictions I agree that it's a two edged sword. Air racing is not safe. As Art told me last year "air racing is moderatly dangerous, and you need to understand that people die". We try and make it as safe as it can be, but at the end of the day there is no way to make air racing 100% safe. I do believe, though, there are some accident scenarios that would put an end to air racing. I believe this is in the minds of the racers and officials who put this rule in place. Maybe it is a bad rule. I know Art discussed this at length with many people at Reno (including me). One of the nice things about being the rookie is that you don't have to have strong opinions on issues like this, rather you just take your seat at the back of the briefing room and follow the more experienced guys lead.

Sorry again that I went tactical Paul. I hope you understand.

Steve

[Apteryx]

Re: Miss Gianna Wake Turbulence Video

Steve-
No hard feelings, I've got a short memory as far as what's ticked me off. Not worth carrying the baggage, and I know, emotions run strong, especially in a rookie
Hell, we all wan't the same thing, more racing, and I really feel there has to be a way to integrate some of the upcoming original designs, safely, or the sport may just die. Most of the warbirds can't afford multiple races at $400+/hr normal operating cost, and without a miracle, Reno is not long for this world. I've seen the destain for the Thunder, change, when a few of the guy's realized it's not a "toy airplane", but I know the feeling still persists, not to mention RARA's motives. I'd love to have THE answer.

Paul

P.S. at least YOU don't have to worry about wakes, you ARE the wake

[matt]

Re: Miss Gianna Wake Turbulence Video

ya know jeff, maybe aerobatic training isn't such a bad idea, i've seen some of them in some really wierd attitudes (as i'm sure you and most others who watch those two classes have). a little extra training couldn't hurt.