P-51 with a 350 chevy

[King]

Re: P-51 with a 350 chevy

I don''t know about that. Pushers are great for smooth airflow over the wing, but they all seem to suffer from propeller inefficency from the turbulence of the airflow coming off the wings and fuselage. If someone can find a solution to the turbulence problem, then perhaps so.

As most of you know, I was Jim Millers crew chief for many years on "Pushy Cat". That airplane was a very efficient and fast aircraft. We suffered in the horsepower area more than anything. Jim liked to perform his own engine work, and never really perfected the engine. In 1990 (I think), we really had the engine dialed in and were running good. The last few years that Jim raced, the horsepower/reliability was down and he did not show well. I had already left the team at that time, so I do not know where the problems were.

Remember one important thing, before "Nemisis" came out, we hardly ever came away from a race with anything lower than second place gold class at all the races we performed at. Says something for the pusher configuration.

[First time Juke]

Re: P-51 with a 350 chevy

The push pull cessna was famous for being faster with the pushing engine only....instead of pulling engine only.

Aircombat modellers have found out that a twin engine fighter is faster than a single engine plane ( in case when using the same engines ). Wonder if this is a fact. Dh Hornet was very fast.

Any data available of that Garber Push Pull racer ?

[AirDOGGe]

Re: P-51 with a 350 chevy

As most of you know, I was Jim Millers crew chief for many years on "Pushy Cat". That airplane was a very efficient and fast aircraft.

Sounds like PC had a pretty clean airframe. It sure was a pretty bird.

I was sad to never see it take first. I use to root for Pushy Cat all the time in the 80's during formula races. I remember a few times when it was leading in first place (YAY!), only to be eventually overtaken before the race was complete (..bummer..). I really wanted to see it win (I love unconventional aircraft designs).

I seem to recall a second aircraft of that design at Reno at least one year, either on the hardtop or as a photo in the race program. Wasn't there a 2-seater version of Pushy Cat as well as the single?

Also, I don't think I saw all the races it competed in. Did it ever take first place in a competition? Just curious.

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I've heard of the 337 flying better on the rear engine alone, but I never learned the reason why. I don't believe it was because a rear prop position is a more efficent location in general, but I have no data to go by concerning the Cessna's case. Perhaps the rear prop produced more drag when feathered as the airflow coming around the curved fuselage may have encountered it at an angle in relation to the plane's direction of flight (just guessing)

Of course, a rear engine aircraft would be preferred by a ground crew as far as clean-up goes, but I'd hate to have to be a pilot trying to bail-out of one in an emergency (many military rear prop aircraft had systems to blow the propeller off in case such a situation came about).

.

.

[Apteryx]

Re: P-51 with a 350 chevy

I seem to recall a second aircraft of that design at Reno at least one year, either on the hardtop or as a photo in the race program. Wasn't there a 2-seater version of Pushy Cat as well

AirDOOGE-
Bruce Bohannon raced the other single place (Pushy Galore), for several years, the two place version chrashed in 1989 during a heat race, after hitting a dust devil, and losing a wing. Fataly injuring the pilot (Errol Roberson) if memory serves me.
Jim has sadly passed, but he was a great guy, very innovative, (his first version started with a fan shroud, went through several changes).
It was interesting to watch him, neck and neck with a high aspect ratio wing, and slowly lose ground through the turns, but he always hung in there. He will be missed.

Paul

[Apteryx]

Re: P-51 with a 350 chevy

AirDOGGE-
337 is an interesting study. Used to get ex-military, converting in-line to regular multi. Some of the guys flew the turbo-prop conversions, and for nearly doubling the horse power, they gained only a few MPH's, (albeit uping the load). But that twin tail, to many intertsecting surfaces, seems to hold true.

Sidebar, the aft end is what they used on the flying Pinto, if you ever saw that thing...
TWICE AS SCARY...

Paul

[First time Juke]

Re: P-51 with a 350 chevy

Of course, a rear engine aircraft would be preferred by a ground crew as far as clean-up goes, but I'd hate to have to be a pilot trying to bail-out of one in an emergency (many military rear prop aircraft had systems to blow the propeller off in case such a situation came about).

Remember my pusher imagination design; it had an E-seat.

http://www.aafo.com/hangartalk/attachment.php?attachmentid=2301

If I wanted go fast with 200 000 dollars and all tools and material ( aeroplane designer pal would be handy too ); I'd go for a twin with Chevy 350s !

[Apteryx]

Re: P-51 with a 350 chevy

Thread drifting...

Very unique variant of the 337

Paul

[First time Juke]

Re: P-51 with a 350 chevy

Folks !

Excuse me brainstorming here, but couldn't help it.

See this:http://img26.exs.cx/img26/4875/p51h8by.jpg

Why not making 3/5 scale P-51 H with a chevy or a Falconer. H model Mustang flew 800 km/h stock. That is pretty fast.

rgds,

Juke

[AirDOGGe]

Re: P-51 with a 350 chevy

Remember my pusher imagination design; it had an E-seat.

Juke, did you design those? Very nice!

The conventional layout (front prop single) looks to me like it could have a great chance of being a winner. I love the clean design and slick planform.

The twin bears a very small resemblence to the Pond Racer in some areas (maybe that is roughly what Burt would have come up with if Mr. Pond hadn't requested a twin-boom layout for the 2 Nissans )

Wonder if I will ever see an unlimited pusher compete during my lifetime? Seems like there have been many attempts over the decades to produce one.


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LOL, Apteryx. That has to be the ugliest mod to a 337 I have ever seen. Form over function definitely didn't apply in this case

(very off-topic). I saw a program not long ago about the pilots who fly 337's south of Florida, looking for rafts of refugees from Cuba for rescue purposes. One plane flew so low while overlooking a raft or boat that he accidentally struck the water and skipped back up, severely bending the front prop in the process.

The only reason he was able to get home was because of the high-mounted rear engine, whose prop didn't touch the water. If he was in most any other general aviation aircraft short of a seaplane, he would have had to ditch. How's that for a 337 sales-pitch?



.

[King]

Re: P-51 with a 350 chevy

Sounds like PC had a pretty clean airframe. It sure was a pretty bird.

I was sad to never see it take first. I use to root for Pushy Cat all the time in the 80's during formula races. I remember a few times when it was leading in first place (YAY!), only to be eventually overtaken before the race was complete (..bummer..). I really wanted to see it win (I love unconventional aircraft designs).

I seem to recall a second aircraft of that design at Reno at least one year, either on the hardtop or as a photo in the race program. Wasn't there a 2-seater version of Pushy Cat as well as the single?

Also, I don't think I saw all the races it competed in. Did it ever take first place in a competition? Just curious.

As already posted, the original racer #73 "Texas Gem" was a two place aircraft that became "Puffin" and was lost with Errol at the controls after a overload condition on couse at Reno. "Pushy Galore" was very much like "Pushy Cat" but slightly bigger due to Bruces size.

"Pushy Cat" was a very successful racer outside of Reno. "Pushy Cat" debuted in 1987 at Reno. Jim won the gold race but was penalized for cutting the dreaded scatter pylon. In the first 23 race meets "Pushy Cat" won 23 races, gained 18 second place finishes, and 7 thirds. Few planes over the years have done as well. Same people and racers at all of the races. Reno, for some reason, was just harder for Jim to get first place at, although 1990 was finally the year for Jim and we took home first place gold in Reno.

[First time Juke]

Re: P-51 with a 350 chevy

Juke, did you design those? Very nice!

The conventional layout (front prop single) looks to me like it could have a great chance of being a winner. I love the clean design and slick planform.

The twin bears a very small resemblence to the Pond Racer in some areas (maybe that is roughly what Burt would have come up with if Mr. Pond hadn't requested a twin-boom layout for the 2 Nissans )

Wonder if I will ever see an unlimited pusher compete during my lifetime? Seems like there have been many attempts over the decades to produce one.

I put some time to practise with a computer and having been spending my childhood in AF Fighter Town in Finland I had some touch in prop planes too ( in fact I have been drawing some plans on those 1/12 scale aircombat fighters too ). I tought we could together with folks at AAFO and PYLON 1 come up with a very refined racer and I think we did. Many thanks folks for the excellent opinions.

Matt Williams has several of his designs somewhere too. I have a half sized pusher somewhere here too. I'll look it up too.

Here my Excalibur It is an attempt to think the pusher thing from a new perspective; it has one main gear and two tailwheels which retract into miniboom/rudder system.

http://www.aafo.com/hangartalk/attachment.php?attachmentid=2302

[Apteryx]

Re: P-51 with a 350 chevy

[QUOTE=AirDOGGE That has to be the ugliest mod to a 337 I have ever seen.
==================================
One plane flew so low while overlooking a raft or boat that he accidentally struck the water and skipped back up, severely bending the front prop in the process.
[/QUOTE]

Drifting on, AiRDOGGE-
The 337 picture said it was usually un-manned, you can see why...
==================================
Salt water showers are SOOO envigorating, bet that really got the old heart pumping...

Paul

[Half_Pint_P51]

Re: P-51 with a 350 chevy

Juke, stop. Your killin' me. I'm haven't laughed this hard in a long time. I'm gonna bust a rib.
Sport class airplanes, how many car engines? One. Falconer V-12, derived from a car prodject, even the 45 degree configuration. Tommy Rose put three through his Thunder Mustang before success. Blue Thunder, now able to put out 450 HP on a regular basis. How do you make more power? Super/turbocharging. Whole new ballgame, with lots of failures ahead. Moral to the story, car engines are expensive, the only one worth a darn is the Falconer which has the most money spent on it.
Drag racing engines? They don't work in airplanes. Reason, they only turn 1000 revolutions on the track at the rated power you are reading in the magazine. Airplane engines push big torque smoothly through a reduction gearbox ( see how many work that are available for the car engine conversions, especially at more than 200 hp) to turn the airplanes motivation device. That is a propeller. The whole thing has to run for hours and hours at high power, or else it is no good to nobody.
You are an enthusiastic guy.
Chris...

Chris.. Your way out of touch . I've got a friend with a 2/3 scale Mustang.It's Chevy powered and has 400+ trouble free hours under it's belt and another with a FEW Mustang that has even more hours on it.
There is no secret into building a reliable engine.There is no lack or super duty endurance parts for these auto engines.Like any engine if you overstrain it then it will fail.An alloy SB 400ci chev engine will run all day at 4800 RPM and produce an easy 300+ HP and gobs of torque.
These suckers are even but in boats and do all sorts of endurane runs.
Of course if you want to race then you will need alot more CI then the biggest auto engine can be made into.Cubic Capacity will be the auto engines limit here, but for an experimental homebuilt/ kit.... then I think they have a place.
Will I have one in my mustang??? Sure will

[First time Juke]

Re: P-51 with a 350 chevy

Somebody on the other thread said they thought it had flown for a while.

It looks like a flying cockpit with two engines..Bede style. Does anyone know if it really did fly ?

[CoastieAux]

Re: P-51 with a 350 chevy

Here you go..