P-51 with a 350 chevy

[King]

Re: P-51 with a 350 chevy

I don''t know about that. Pushers are great for smooth airflow over the wing, but they all seem to suffer from propeller inefficency from the turbulence of the airflow coming off the wings and fuselage. If someone can find a solution to the turbulence problem, then perhaps so.

As most of you know, I was Jim Millers crew chief for many years on "Pushy Cat". That airplane was a very efficient and fast aircraft. We suffered in the horsepower area more than anything. Jim liked to perform his own engine work, and never really perfected the engine. In 1990 (I think), we really had the engine dialed in and were running good. The last few years that Jim raced, the horsepower/reliability was down and he did not show well. I had already left the team at that time, so I do not know where the problems were.

Remember one important thing, before "Nemisis" came out, we hardly ever came away from a race with anything lower than second place gold class at all the races we performed at. Says something for the pusher configuration.

[Apteryx]

Re: P-51 with a 350 chevy

AirDOGGE-
Good surfing, d*mn Lowell is amazing, love to see his library. (I had to thin mine out a bit, move some to storage, or start sleeping on magazines). If it's all in his head, I'll be even more in awe.

From a crew standpoint, pushers are GREAT, (leaves most of the ecky stuff, at the back of the airplane, sooo much easier to clean)..

So many projects, so few flying...

Paul

[AirDOGGe]

Re: P-51 with a 350 chevy

No, I didn't see that push/pull airframe before. Looks awesome (I wonder how old the photo is?....Maybe it's another "Mach-buster" )

Here's a 3-view drawing of the same, dated 1976, so it was probably stillborn:

http://home.earthlink.net/~rotaryeng/GARBER-DG1.gif

I take it back. A Google search under "DAVE GARBER" ROTARY came up with this page that says it is (or was) flying.

http://members.aol.com/_ht_a/rotaryroster/flying.html

Well, wha-do-ya-know? I found some mention of it here at AAFO back in 2002 (scroll down to Lowell's post):

http://www.aafo.com/hangartalk/showthread.php?t=1417&page=3

The only other mention I found of it is a page copyrighted 1988-2004 that states that Dave had taken it out of mothballs in the 80's or 90's. It also incorrectly states that he made it in the 80's:

Excerpt from the letter:
Dave Garber built such an airplane in the 1980's and it is now being taken
out of mothballs and refurbished. Dave had some cooling problems and fuel injection computer problems. He has recently made contact with members of the Aircraft Rotary Engine Newsletter with experience in solving these kinds of problems.

http://home.earthlink.net/~rotaryeng/Increadable-rotary2.txt

Maybe another member here knows more about it? I'd love to hear of it's current status...


-----------------------------

Maybe a pusher is the way to go ?

I don''t know about that. Pushers are great for smooth airflow over the wing, but they all seem to suffer from propeller inefficency from the turbulence of the airflow coming off the wings and fuselage. If someone can find a solution to the turbulence problem, then perhaps so.

[Apteryx]

Re: P-51 with a 350 chevy

Thanks AD-
I Get lost sometimes following links around, that looks like the engine. Can't imagine sustaining 900hp for a race plus join-up, if unlimited. Be interesting if they ever change the rules, or maybe a Rotary class?

Juke-
Good find, I've heard about a push-me, pull-you for a few years now, never saw the project. Interesting, but alas....

Paul

[First time Juke]

Re: P-51 with a 350 chevy

Whoaa Airdogge !

Did you see this there:

http://home.earthlink.net/~rotaryeng/Dave-Garber-fuse.jpg

A wankel Reno-racer in progress ! Blueprints of that 500 mph banger somewhere ? I like that rudder a lot.

Maybe a pusher is the way to go ?


rgds,

Juke

[AirDOGGe]

Re: P-51 with a 350 chevy

Hmmmm...Maybe due to their small size?

I would think a torquey diesel would be better in a heavy tank, but then again, M-1's have a turbine, so maybe size versus output has something to do with it (just speculating).

[First time Juke]

Re: P-51 with a 350 chevy

I know Wankels are used in tanks ! Wonder why...possibly they can be layed flat to keep CG low ?

[AirDOGGe]

Re: P-51 with a 350 chevy

If your still living the fantasy, stumbled across a 900hp 3-rotor Wankle, some guy was building for a drag racer.

It seems that Wankels are ideal for aircraft (lighter, smaller and less vibration than piston designs of equal HP). Too bad Reno air race rules don't allow for them...

They are actually supposed to be pretty reliable under constant power conditions (as it is with planes). It was the constant low-high RPM enviroment of automobiles that gave so many problems with rotor seals on the early Mazdas.

... Seems to have disapeared from the link it was on,

THIS SITE has a link to photos of a 900-hp 3-rotor wankel as used with a ducted-fan, plus many many more links of interest:

http://home.earthlink.net/~rotaryeng/ACRE.html

.

[Apteryx]

Re: P-51 with a 350 chevy

Don-
Thanks, I did stumble accross that one, funny article, talks about developing an engine for an aircraft, and they don't even show a picture, contact, web address, nada. I'm trying to remember the year(s) Prowler was on display, (down by the end of the pit stands). Can't be to much later then '98ish. Heard 'round about, of some trouble getting COMPLETE kits, guys scrambling for parts. Beautiful planform, it would be cool to see on the coarse. (Wish he hadn't named it Prowler, seen all the E6's I'll need to see for a while. Surfing on...
Don't know if George "entered" it, have to dig out the old programs, and check, Thanks, again.
Paul

[hattend]

Re: P-51 with a 350 chevy

Does anybody KNOW, what happened to George Morse's, (no relation to Dave Morss), "Prowler" (I believe it was called). A two place semi-eliptical wing, BEAUTIFUL, original design. (Warbird-esque, but not a copy of anything in perticular). Displayed at Reno, it came with a Olds (215) F-85 aluminum block V-8. It WAS to be sold as a kit, and he was fitting it for a 350 aluminum block "race engine". Rumor has it he sold a number of kits, just surprised not to have seen one in the Sport Class, yet....ANY PICTURES OUT THERE, no luck surfing, so far.

Paul

Here is a link to a story about the Prowler's engine being used in a Skybolt circa 1997:

http://www.steenaero.com/articles_detail.cfm?ArticleID=35

Don

[Apteryx]

Re: P-51 with a 350 chevy

Juke-
If your still living the fantasy, stumbled across a 900hp 3-rotor Wankle, some guy was building for a drag racer. Seems to have disapeared from the link it was on, but you got your power to weight ratio, a little better, dont think you'd have the endurance though.
Haleys comet, comes to mind...
Piston engines go bang-bang-bang, 900hp Wankles go BOOOOMM..

Paul

[Apteryx]

Re: P-51 with a 350 chevy

Does anybody KNOW, what happened to George Morse's, (no relation to Dave Morss), "Prowler" (I believe it was called). A two place semi-eliptical wing, BEAUTIFUL, original design. (Warbird-esque, but not a copy of anything in perticular). Displayed at Reno, it came with a Olds (215) F-85 aluminum block V-8. It WAS to be sold as a kit, and he was fitting it for a 350 aluminum block "race engine". Rumor has it he sold a number of kits, just surprised not to have seen one in the Sport Class, yet....ANY PICTURES OUT THERE, no luck surfing, so far.

Paul

[440_Magnum]

Re: P-51 with a 350 chevy

Juke, stop. Your killin' me. I'm haven't laughed this hard in a long time. I'm gonna bust a rib.
Sport class airplanes, how many car engines? One. Falconer V-12, derived from a car prodject, even the 45 degree configuration.

You glossed a key point: the Falconer is DERIVED from a big-block Chevy. Its not actually a big-block Chevy (4 too many cylinders for one thing, completely different materials for another). So while some of the "boilerplate" (bore center spacing, etc.) is from the automotive world, its so heavily re-worked as to have very little in common with its automotive ancestor. (And BTW- its a 90-degree engine not 45)

They don't work in airplanes. Reason, they only turn 1000 revolutions on the track at the rated power you are reading in the magazine.

Well, "that depends." NASCAR engines of similar size (5.9 Liters) put out 700 horsepower for order-of 4 hours straight. Still not enough for any reasonable life expectancy in an aircraft, and far too heavy for the power they do put out.

But basically I agree with you- car engines are made for cars. They don't translate well to aircraft in general- the design parameters are optimized for a completely different world. Production car engines are made to run order-of 200,000 miles (which translates to 4000 or more hours) between overhauls, and weight is a viable way to strengthen them for that kind of reliability. I wouldn't put a Lycoming in my '69 Dodge, nor would I suggest putting my Dodge's 440 in a sport plane. Apples, oranges.

[First time Juke]

Re: P-51 with a 350 chevy

I did Wayne I did, just before you posted a reply. Buahahaha muaahahha. I knew you would find your own story ( eh Mark Kallios story in fact ). Thanks. I gotta sleep now..very tired I am.

[AAFO_WSagar]

Re: P-51 with a 350 chevy

Thank you Michele !

Is there a history of the Falconer for all of us to read ?

rgds,

Juke

Juke, I'm sure a "google" search would yeild a large amount of information on Ryan Falconer and his engines... using the search feature we installed on the site (it's on most pages, I'm not referring to the one built into the message board) brought up several interesting links, including one story by Mark Kallio from WAY back when we first worked together here on this site.. http://aafo.com/racing/news/98/12-07-98.htm

Pretty interesting read.. Try http://falconerengines.com or something like that for Ryans site..