Pond Racer ?

[marke]

I wonder what the potential the Pond Racer would have had with a Turbo Prop Engine for a Prop Record or Engines used that are use by the top Gold Racers in the Sport Class, with some modifications to increase the cowling diameter for the Engines. I think the airplane could have been something with the right powerplant combination or a less exotic engine for early development. Maybe electrify it could be a possibility if there are any more takers to break the Current Electric Speed Record holder the Rolls Royce Sharps NXT.

Mark

[CubersWrist]

Re: Pond Racer ?

If turbo props were allowed I would expect the Pond Racer to still be flying today

Some guys invested a lot of time and research into making a model in X-plane. It was modeled with PT-6 engines

https://store.x-plane.org/Rutan-Model-158-Pond-Racer--Test-Pilot-Project_p_1394.html

says 400knots in the video. It's just a simulation so take that with a grain of salt.

[knot4u]

Re: Pond Racer ?

It was an interesting idea, try to build a smaller, lighter airframe and use two 1000hp engines and hope the aerodynamics would overcome the lack of power compared to the racers of the day. From what I understood at the time Bob Pond's intention was to stop warbirds from being modified for the purpose of racing, an admirable ambition I guess. But it was a pretty complicated airplane that was still going through a lot of developmental teething issues, I'd assume anytime you try something that far out of the box no one was expecting entirely smooth sailing all the way to a Gold win and unfortunately the program ended tragically. I will say that someone I trusted once told me he didn't think that it would've never been able to run up front because of the intersectional drag with a pod and two nacelles and booms, he was sure that having two engines with 1000hp each would not have been enough to outperform the 4000hp+ Gold racers it was competing against. I guess we'll never know.

[RAD2LTR]

Re: Pond Racer ?

Intersectional drag was the Pond Racers achilles heel. Simply WAY too much drag. Rutan loves his booms and pods, but none of them were designed as unlimited class racers.

If you look at all the different ideas that have bounced around trying to run less power to go 400+ only the cleanest airframes have managed to do it, and even then, they are pushing 800hp (Correct me if I'm wrong here.) At this time, outside a turboprop, in order to run the needed 4000(ish) hp to go 480+ you still need a WW2 era engine. This is the primary reason I don't see the Sport class guys going much faster than they are now. They simply can't make the power required to go that fast, and there are no engines with less than 1000 cubic inches that come close to making even 1/3 of that.

Will

[knot4u]

Re: Pond Racer ?

Intersectional drag was the Pond Racers achilles heel. Simply WAY too much drag. Rutan loves his booms and pods, but none of them were designed as unlimited class racers.

If you look at all the different ideas that have bounced around trying to run less power to go 400+ only the cleanest airframes have managed to do it, and even then, they are pushing 800hp (Correct me if I'm wrong here.) At this time, outside a turboprop, in order to run the needed 4000(ish) hp to go 480+ you still need a WW2 era engine. This is the primary reason I don't see the Sport class guys going much faster than they are now. They simply can't make the power required to go that fast, and there are no engines with less than 1000 cubic inches that come close to making even 1/3 of that.

Will

"BUT A TOP FUEL CAR MAKES 12,000HP!". I've heard that for many years, is it true? I don't know. Is there a dyno they run these engines on? I don't know, maybe? I'd heard they based the HP number on how much fuel they pumped through the engine (the key word being through). But if it needs to be disassembled every 1/4 mile it won't work in any airplane anyway.

[RAD2LTR]

Re: Pond Racer ?

"BUT A TOP FUEL CAR MAKES 12,000HP!". I've heard that for many years, is it true? I don't know. Is there a dyno they run these engines on? I don't know, maybe? I'd heard they based the HP number on how much fuel they pumped through the engine (the key word being through). But if it needs to be disassembled every 1/4 mile it won't work in any airplane anyway.

It might make 12K hp for 4 seconds, but yes its done after that. Last time I checked, you need a minimum of about 10 minutes at race power, plus enough life left to get back on the ground. Clearly because of this, the comparison is pointless.

Will

[knot4u]

Re: Pond Racer ?

It might make 12K hp for 4 seconds, but yes its done after that. Last time I checked, you need a minimum of about 10 minutes at race power, plus enough life left to get back on the ground. Clearly because of this, the comparison is pointless.

Will

And gold racers normally fly to the event.

[RAD2LTR]

Re: Pond Racer ?

And gold racers normally fly to the event.

I can think of only two that don't. Rare Bear and Galloping Ghost, although technically even GG flew up from Minden so that qualifies as flying to the event. Did others fly in and out on their race engines? Sometimes, but not always. My point was, an engine that lives for literally 4 seconds is of no use as an air racing engine.

Will

[Samuel]

Re: Pond Racer ?

The molds are still out at the Grand Canyon if anyone wants to try again.

[ZacYates]

Re: Pond Racer ?

The molds are still out at the Grand Canyon if anyone wants to try again.

I for one would love to see it. Or even a replica for display.

[Race5]

Re: Pond Racer ?

"BUT A TOP FUEL CAR MAKES 12,000HP!". I've heard that for many years, is it true? I don't know. Is there a dyno they run these engines on? I don't know, maybe? I'd heard they based the HP number on how much fuel they pumped through the engine (the key word being through). But if it needs to be disassembled every 1/4 mile it won't work in any airplane anyway.

The fuel cars have a strain gauge in the clutch coupler that measures torque. If you have the torque reading and rpm, then it is simple math to determine HP.

[knot4u]

Re: Pond Racer ?

The fuel cars have a strain gauge in the clutch coupler that measures torque. If you have the torque reading and rpm, then it is simple math to determine HP.

Okay. It would be interesting to see a dynamometer that could handle that sort of HP, I never said they weren't making those numbers, I said I don't know. The AC&T test stand was an 18 wheeler with a flat bed trailer with a control booth and a structure at the aft end that an engine would be mounted on after repair or overhaul to verify it's functionality. The engines would be fitted with a "test club" in place of its normal prop. We were never able to run full power on the Bearcat engines on that test stand, I heard it was due to cooling and maybe some other factors, the most exciting of which was that the powers that were thought it might've rolled the trailer over. Even high power runs with the airplane chained down were a little sketchy and the only time we'd get to really push it was in the air. I always wondered about mounting the whole airplane in a big wind tunnel and testing it at full power, but that would have cost millions and we were working on a shoestring budget. But a boy can dream right?

[TarDevil]

Re: Pond Racer ?

Can't remember the guy's name but he has a Steve Morris LS powered Camaro that was dyno'd at 3500hp. The man drives his Camaro to racing events towing a trailer of parts.

Yeah, I get it... he doesn't make 3500 driving cross country, but the engine lasts long enough to win some drag races and drive back home. Leads me to believe Steve is getting some longevity out of his phenomenal engines.

NASCAR racers are making 900hp for 500 miles.. normally aspirated engines of 360 CI. Some quick, simple math says a blower certainly could up those numbers quite a bit, at least long enough for 8 laps.

On another aviation forum a member posted a link to a couple of junkyard LS engines that were boosted to around 1500hp and ran to destruction. Also can't remember how long they lasted but the point of his post was the engines hung around as long as needed for those eight laps.

So, don't you think a sport class airframe can hold enough fluids for at least 1500hp for those eight laps? And an unlimited airframe big enough to cool 3000 hp for a race?

[Race5]

Re: Pond Racer ?

Can't remember the guy's name but he has a Steve Morris LS powered Camaro that was dyno'd at 3500hp. The man drives his Camaro to racing events towing a trailer of parts.

Yeah, I get it... he doesn't make 3500 driving cross country, but the engine lasts long enough to win some drag races and drive back home. Leads me to believe Steve is getting some longevity out of his phenomenal engines.

NASCAR racers are making 900hp for 500 miles.. normally aspirated engines of 360 CI. Some quick, simple math says a blower certainly could up those numbers quite a bit, at least long enough for 8 laps.

On another aviation forum a member posted a link to a couple of junkyard LS engines that were boosted to around 1500hp and ran to destruction. Also can't remember how long they lasted but the point of his post was the engines hung around as long as needed for those eight laps.

So, don't you think a sport class airframe can hold enough fluids for at least 1500hp for those eight laps? And an unlimited airframe big enough to cool 3000 hp for a race?

I was listening to a discussion with Ken Duttweiler who builds the engines that the Speed Demon LSR team has used to dominate at Bonneville the past several years. A Pikes Peak race team came to him with an issue they were having with a boosted LS application. It would make 1500 or so HP for a minute or two, then start to over heat. They were looking for advice on the cooling system. What they later found was that the engine architecture itself was the issue. It could not reject enough heat into the cooling system at that power level to stay cool. There was no way to make it work.

[TarDevil]

Re: Pond Racer ?

I was listening to a discussion with Ken Duttweiler who builds the engines that the Speed Demon LSR team has used to dominate at Bonneville the past several years. A Pikes Peak race team came to him with an issue they were having with a boosted LS application. It would make 1500 or so HP for a minute or two, then start to over heat. They were looking for advice on the cooling system. What they later found was that the engine architecture itself was the issue. It could not reject enough heat into the cooling system at that power level to stay cool. There was no way to make it work.

My memory may be flawed about whether the Camaro was based on LS or not. Nonetheless... it was an automotive V8 small enough to shoehorn into a 60's vintage car. My real point is.. I think the power is available (and the numbers there to verify) in modern turbo'd V8's to move a slick airframe to competitive speeds.