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  • #91
    Re: Updates from Reno...

    Originally posted by Jim58 View Post
    It feels like that Saturday afternoon in 99
    or any day in 2007, I too was yelling at the TV in disbelief. So So sad indeed.

    prayers to all

    "bye bye Miss American Pie"
    9/18/99 was 23 years ago today also.

    Comment


    • #92
      Re: Updates from Reno...

      i hate superstition, but I can't help but think.. 2001, 2011, we missed 2020 due to covid so 2021 was kind of 2020 so this year was kind of like 2021....

      after retiring from reno in 2013 i considered going out there this year, i am glad i didn't, i don't think could have handled being there for another one like this.

      blue skies and tailwinds, rest in peace jet pilot.

      wayne, your not being a board nazi, the people here are more like family than most internet groups. for the most part, this group is very knowledgeable about aviation, there will be a time for a civil respectful discussion of this accident, today is just not the day.
      bob burns
      ex tow-3, now race 66 crew
      "dont mess with texas"

      Comment


      • #93
        Re: Updates from Reno...

        Originally posted by tow-3 View Post
        there will be a time for a civil respectful discussion of this accident, today is just not the day.
        My thoughts exactly Bob.
        Zac in NZ

        Comment


        • #94
          Re: Updates from Reno...

          Originally posted by TarDevil View Post
          Wayne, I feel like I need to be in the same room with you guys, to vent/cry/pray/bang my head... with a hard drink in one hand, a Bible in the other.
          Not a bad choice. Life is short, death is certain, and things like this are tragic, but there are big picture things including the promise of eternal life.

          Comment


          • #95
            Re: Updates from Reno...

            RARA has formally identified the pilot in an email newsletter:
            Pilot Lost in Fatal Crash During Jet Gold Race
            Aaron Hogue, 61, Lost in Fatal Crash

            On Sunday, we lost a pilot and friend to a fatal crash during the third lap of the Jet Gold Race. Race #29, ?Ballista,? an Aero Vodochody L-29 was piloted by Aaron Hogue, who was killed on impact. An investigation into the incident is being conducted by the NTSB (National Transportation Safety Board) and the FAA (Federal Aviation Administration). We will provide more information as it becomes available.

            Our hearts, prayers, and support go out to Aaron?s family and friends, and also to those in the racing community who mourn with us.

            Please watch the press conference from today from RARA Chairman and CEO Fred Telling in the block below.
            Zac in NZ

            Comment


            • #96
              I'd Like To Thank:

              Everyone for being grounded and unless I'm missing reading posts, restrained during a very difficult time for our sport!

              Obviously there are a lot questions that need to be answered..
              Wayne Sagar
              "Pusher of Electrons"

              Comment


              • #97
                Re: Updates from Reno...

                Originally posted by tow-3 View Post
                i hate superstition, but I can't help but think.. 2001, 2011, we missed 2020 due to covid so 2021 was kind of 2020 so this year was kind of like 2021....

                after retiring from reno in 2013 i considered going out there this year, i am glad i didn't, i don't think could have handled being there for another one like this.

                blue skies and tailwinds, rest in peace jet pilot.

                wayne, your not being a board nazi, the people here are more like family than most internet groups. for the most part, this group is very knowledgeable about aviation, there will be a time for a civil respectful discussion of this accident, today is just not the day.
                I'm grateful for your understanding and support. I try very hard to let our members chat openly and "get it off their chest"

                Sadly, we've all been here before, more than once. The balls out "do some of that pilot ****" that the racers bring to Reno and have made it what it is should not be allowed to contribute to its end.

                In light of the fact that I watched a pretty clear video capture yesterday that showed an aileron come off just after/simultaneously with the knife edge ultimate decent, as well as discussions with those who have been involved with Air Racing from the beginning and before! I have to ask myself.. "How Fast is Too Fast?"


                I'm not trying to scrape on sore spots, I just agree that KNOWING what happened is important to our mental health looking at ways to stop it from happening again should be encouraged
                Wayne Sagar
                "Pusher of Electrons"

                Comment


                • #98
                  Re: Updates from Reno...

                  Originally posted by AAFO_WSagar View Post
                  I'm grateful for your understanding and support. I try very hard to let our members chat openly and "get it off their chest"

                  Sadly, we've all been here before, more than once. The balls out "do some of that pilot ****" that the racers bring to Reno and have made it what it is should not be allowed to contribute to its end.

                  In light of the fact that I watched a pretty clear video capture yesterday that showed an aileron come off just after/simultaneously with the knife edge ultimate decent, as well as discussions with those who have been involved with Air Racing from the beginning and before! I have to ask myself.. "How Fast is Too Fast?"


                  I'm not trying to scrape on sore spots, I just agree that KNOWING what happened is important to our mental health looking at ways to stop it from happening again should be encouraged
                  Wayne, I know the video you are talking about, and that is either something in the background, or a video artifact of some kind. I was shown a very clear still photo of the aircraft just before impact, and it very clearly showed all of the control surfaces were in tact, and still attached to the aircraft.

                  Comment


                  • #99
                    Re: Updates from Reno...

                    Originally posted by AAFO_WSagar View Post
                    I have to ask myself.. "How Fast is Too Fast?"


                    I'm not trying to scrape on sore spots, I just agree that KNOWING what happened is important to our mental health looking at ways to stop it from happening again should be encouraged
                    Amen to that. I look to this site as a resource for KNOWLEDGABLE input/observation regarding the incident. And, like others, I'm "laying low" trying to avoid "armchair quaterbacking" on the issue.

                    Been going to the races for 50 years. And Wayne, you bring up a good point...or question:" How Fast is TOO Fast"..to which I might add "for the site". It's been discussed before about the evolutionary changes to the course. I was reading Tegler's book "Gentlemen, You Have a Race" and in it, he mentioned the Unlimited course as 9.8 miles. What is it now? Down to 8 miles? You tighten-up the course, that just adds to the g-loading. ok.....enough armchair-****.

                    Comment


                    • Re: Updates from Reno...

                      Originally posted by Race5 View Post
                      Wayne, I know the video you are talking about, and that is either something in the background, or a video artifact of some kind. I was shown a very clear still photo of the aircraft just before impact, and it very clearly showed all of the control surfaces were in tact, and still attached to the aircraft.
                      I saw both, and I agree with you Race5, whatever that red rectangle is, it does not appear to be an aileron. It shows up four seconds before the crash in the RARA live feed shot video that has been republished by others.
                      There is a video shot from outside the course that is much closer to the accident aircraft. It picks up two seconds before the crash, but both ailerons are clearly on the airplane all the way down.

                      That red speck is an artifact, background item, *maybe* something off the airplane, but not the right aileron.

                      Comment


                      • Re: I'd Like To Thank:

                        Originally posted by AAFO_WSagar View Post
                        Everyone for being grounded and unless I'm missing reading posts, restrained during a very difficult time for our sport!

                        Obviously there are a lot questions that need to be answered..
                        I agree Wayne - everyone has been well grounded thus far during this tuff time. As everyone probably knows, my wife passed recently so I know what a loss like this does to those close to them. It sucks, plain and simple so I hope nothing I say below diminishes from that - it's not intended to.

                        I'm not going to speculate in public about what I saw in the video's & other information on the accident - the NTSB will in time come to their conclusions & recommendations. RARA will act on those and probably make modifications the PRS training syllabus - it's really hard to say at this juncture what will happen as a result of the NTSB findings, maybe nothing. The sport itself can and will recover from this, of that I have no doubt.

                        But I would like say something about one of the questions that need to be answered. Namely, the impact of this (and Sherman's accident) could have on insurance premiums and how that could be the major influencing factor in the future of the sport. I think I mentioned in the Miss America thread that Brent told me that he has to have three separate insurance policies to race at Reno. The required race insurance for Reno is already very, very expensive. With recent events it will only get more so and there is going to be a point at which the burden of expensive insurance premiums will become a huge consideration for those wishing to compete. To ignore that, or its potential to adversely impact future events is ill advised at best. I will say with Brent, his desire to get Miss America 2.0 on the course and compete at Reno overrides the cost consideration... he's got a goal, he's committed to see that dream through presently. That's presently... next year has yet to be determined.
                        Mark K....

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Pylon1_Mark View Post

                          But I would like say something about one of the questions that need to be answered. Namely, the impact of this (and Sherman's accident) could have on insurance premiums and how that could be the major influencing factor in the future of the sport. I think I mentioned in the Miss America thread that Brent told me that he has to have three separate insurance policies to race at Reno. The required race insurance for Reno is already very, very expensive. With recent events it will only get more so and there is going to be a point at which the burden of expensive insurance premiums will become a huge consideration for those wishing to compete. To ignore that, or its potential to adversely impact future events is ill advised at best. I will say with Brent, his desire to get Miss America 2.0 on the course and compete at Reno overrides the cost consideration... he's got a goal, he's committed to see that dream through presently. That's presently... next year has yet to be determined.
                          At the very least, RARA has already changed the dates on airrace.org to reflect 2023 so they seem to think this won't be an issue. The racer's insurance themselves, definitely a question mark.
                          Reno from '99 to '22

                          Comment


                          • Re: Updates from Reno...

                            I don't have an answer to the "how fast is too fast" question.

                            I do think it's time to look at g-suit requirements for aircraft above some defined average g-load or speed. For example (I'm throwing numbers out here) - maybe an average g-load of 4g or speed above 425mph would require anti-G pants, with some higher limit (475mph?) requiring a full anti-G suit.

                            I know this will rub some folks wrong - but mandatory counseling and monitoring of this elite group of pilots during the week to make sure they are healthy and staying well hydrated (etc.) may also be part of the response to this event. I also wonder about health monitoring while on the race course - it's certainly possible technologically to monitor and datalog various health vitals during each race, and then let a doctor download and analyze the data after a race. If a pilot was starting to struggle, this might help identify the issue before it becomes critical. G tolerance and health are related.

                            As much as I LOVE Reno's go-fast gearhead culture and my fond memories of (for example) #77's team thrashing to get the Bear into the air and out front, there has to be an honest and heartfelt responsibility to the entire air race community to do what they do as safely as practical. GG 2011 was a wakeup call and one who's lessons we need to visit and revisit every year.

                            Had #29 went in on a different piece of real estate, this accident could have been a million times more tragic. As awful as it was, it could have been far worse.

                            Edit: just to be clear. I am in no way trying to imply that the teams/pilots don't already have a heartfelt responsibility to be safe. Nor am I trying to imply any cause to the #29 accident. I'm only commenting on what I see as areas that can be improved and made safer, based on "holes" in safety that seem to be illuminated right now.
                            Last edited by AirRaceFan; 09-24-2022, 01:02 AM.

                            Comment


                            • Re: Updates from Reno...

                              Well said AirRaceFan. With all the latest technology a lot of what you said could be implemented with an extra cost. Raise the purses in the name of safety.
                              Lockheed Bob

                              Comment


                              • Re: Updates from Reno...

                                Originally posted by AirRaceFan View Post
                                I don't have an answer to the "how fast is too fast" question.

                                I do think it's time to look at g-suit requirements for aircraft above some defined average g-load or speed. For example (I'm throwing numbers out here) - maybe an average g-load of 4g or speed above 425mph would require anti-G pants, with some higher limit (475mph?) requiring a full anti-G suit.

                                I know this will rub some folks wrong - but mandatory counseling and monitoring of this elite group of pilots during the week to make sure they are healthy and staying well hydrated (etc.) may also be part of the response to this event. I also wonder about health monitoring while on the race course - it's certainly possible technologically to monitor and datalog various health vitals during each race, and then let a doctor download and analyze the data after a race. If a pilot was starting to struggle, this might help identify the issue before it becomes critical. G tolerance and health are related.

                                As much as I LOVE Reno's go-fast gearhead culture and my fond memories of (for example) #77's team thrashing to get the Bear into the air and out front, there has to be an honest and heartfelt responsibility to the entire air race community to do what they do as safely as practical. GG 2011 was a wakeup call and one who's lessons we need to visit and revisit every year.

                                Had #29 went in on a different piece of real estate, this accident could have been a million times more tragic. As awful as it was, it could have been far worse.

                                Edit: just to be clear. I am in no way trying to imply that the teams/pilots don't already have a heartfelt responsibility to be safe. Nor am I trying to imply any cause to the #29 accident. I'm only commenting on what I see as areas that can be improved and made safer, based on "holes" in safety that seem to be illuminated right now.
                                Amen, AirRaceFan: you got my vote! We ALL love the sport, and keeping those safe who do the driving is paramount.

                                Comment

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