Are the stands moving??

[V1670]

Re: Are the stands moving??

Well, it would seem to me that "scrubbing off speed in the turns" equates to more loading on the aircraft. I'd think reducing the loading on the plane would be more safe.

[AERRACE]

Re: Are the stands moving??

Mea Cupa, AirDogge. I must have been suffering from momentary color blindness when I confused the red and the green markers. Your move of Pylon 1 makes a lot of sense when viewed correctly.

Frank

[Air Boss]

Re: Are the stands moving??

Just to clarify and as most of you know there are, ironically, two Pylon 1's. And perhaps a bit more ironically, Inner 1 (Bips, F1) is outside of Outer 1. Thus, Outer 1 could be relocated inward to soften that turn without affecting the course for the slower classes, if that's where RARA wanted to go. Issue would be entrance to Outer 2 however. As for Outer 8, that entrance is likely the fastest "corner" on the course and softening that could possible enduce even greater loading.

just my two cents...that, and $4 will get you a Starbucks!

We're at 243 and counting...

[degroodtt]

Re: Are the stands moving??

Air Judge,

Just sent you a private message.

[AirDOGGe]

Re: Are the stands moving??

I think moving P8 would lessen the stress. I use to watch the races from the fenceline for many years, and it gives one a different perspective of the course. You see the planes heading down the straight extremely fast, then have to slow a bit and set up for what seems to be a near right-angle left turn (actually closer to 80 degrees) onto the front straight.

As they are doing this, all you see on the other side of the aircraft are structures, planes and people. It really is the most critical portion of the track, and shouldn't be sporting the tightest turn coming off the fastest stretch.



Alternatives?

The only other option that comes to mind one could do to reduce the threat of turn 8 a LITTLE bit is shove everyone further to the right, so that the reserved stands begin where the GA ones do now, or even further down.

Of course that does nothing to improve safety for participants and spectators in the pit and hangars areas, nor the pilot racers. I prefer to go with a plan that improves safety for all, and this is the best I could come up with and still have an air race without moving the crowd to some unreasonable distance from the action.




IF ANYONE thinks they may have a better idea to improve safety without inhibiting participants or limiting top speeds somehow as have been done with Nascar and Indy, PLEASE let us know. I'm sure every member here would love to hear it.

[degroodtt]

Re: Are the stands moving??

IF ANYONE thinks they may have a better idea to improve safety without inhibiting participants or limiting top speeds somehow as have been done with Nascar and Indy, PLEASE let us know. I'm sure every member here would love to hear it.

= no restrictor plates and no drafting

[Leo]

Re: Are the stands moving??

The announcementon the local news today was "no major changes".
There are probably a thousand tweaks to the setup that would change what happened but nothing is going to anticipate the placement of a catastrophic event around that course. As we have seen since 1966 the odds of it happening THERE are extremely weak, like lightning striking. A split second earlier and it would have hit the pits. A split second later, the static display area. Any earlier or later than that and all we would be discussing is the loss of GG and Mr. Leeward out in the desert.

[AirDOGGe]

Re: Are the stands moving??

Good. I'm glad sane minds prevailed...I hope.

I heard this sad event described as the "100-year flood" of air racing, and I agree. The odds must be quite high that a plane would fail and come down right there, considering the distance the crowds are from the race line and that the majority of the track is surrounded by open terrain.



Only the sharpness of that last turn bothers me still. Sorry if I keep bringing it up, but I truly do consider it partially responsible for this tragedy.

[Air Boss]

Re: Are the stands moving??

Certainly not a professional race course designer, aeronautical engineer, or race pilot by any stretch. Just a very interested party who has a very unique seat to all this. As I write this, it strikes me that perhaps, just perhaps, it's not just the course that needs tweaking. I understand that's the direction this post has taken and that's all good. Should never exclude anything from such discussions until it's been proven to be a non-factor. Perhaps the improvements to be considered are related to the equipment as well, not just the course layout. Now, before you go off the deep end hear me out.

As much as anyone I cherish the thrill of speed and power, especially when it’s 50' over my head. It's orgasmic, trust me. It’s a huge part of why I chose to stand out in the desert doing the “Shade Dance” all day long, eating ice-water soaked bologna sandwiches and Oreos. And I'd not offer up anything willy-nilly that would significantly dampen that. However, as mentioned earlier in this thread many other motorsports have addressed their issues with speed vs. course/track by experimenting and ultimately accepting slight modifications to the equipment to enhance the safety margins for both participant and spectator.

NASCAR with its restrictor plates roof-mounted aerodynamically deployed flaps among them. IndyCAR has active and passive systems designed to keep all four on the ground. “Unlimited” hydroplane racing (a long history of relationship with NCAR) has instituted many aerodynamic and mechanical systems that restrict/redirect airflow and limit horsepower (governing fuel flow rates mostly). After recent accidents in NHRA it would not surprise me to see something from their governing body there as well.

Granted two things all the above entities have in common that NCAR does not. First, they’re surface based and typically operate (hopefully!) in a two dimensional world. Second, they’re not subject to oversight by a federal agency. That’s our lot…it simply is what it is.

Where I’m going with this is that a gauntlet has been thrown down in some regard. In an effort to reassess the safety factors while maintaining the spectacle and the one of a kind nature of the sport, perhaps a two-pronged approach is in order…technical and geographic…to the extent we need to do either. Let’s challenge our tech guys, our engineers, our crews as well as our course designers and aerodynamists.

Again, only throwing this out for consideration. I’m just a guy who has fallen in love with Air Racing…whose calendar begins on the first weekend after Labor Day…who would struggle mightily if his nostrils weren’t filled with AvGas and sagebrush once a year in September!

Cheers All,
Owen

[supercub]

Re: Are the stands moving??

One thing that I'm sure they will be addressing for safety sakes is trim tab attachements on Mustangs. The only other item I would like to see, and has been mentioned in this or another thread is moving the pylons slightly on the southwest corner of the course to just ease the turn a bit. Other then that "Gentlemen, you have a RACE"
Brian

[Hans Oberev]

Re: Are the stands moving??

Yes, teams should share trim tab mods on P-51's, RARA should establish an acceptable modification and have a tech inspection team examine and sign off on it. How did Voodoo address their malfunction and what is Strega doing?

Flatening out the last turn to minimize stress on control surfaces is another good idea. Makes more sense than moving the stands. Agree with another post, we are dealing with three dimensions and 450 plus mph. No telling where an out of control plane is going to touch down.

Moving the spectator area to Truckee is another good idea to insure total safety for the fans. Bad idea for the real fans. Need to feel the power!