Safety

[sandramore]

Re: Safety

I'm with you, my doggy friend.

We've seen a near miss and two accidents related to trim tab failures, assuming the NTSB does come back with that finding on Jimmy's accident.

Rather than a knee jerk reaction to somehow make the setting safer - which I think is impossible - shouldn't we be trying to sort out how to eliminate or at least reduce the possibility of another mechanical failure of the same sort?

And just because I'm aggravated at the moment, I really resent the way air show organizers have now start saying their primary concern is safety, as though it wasn't ours. Jackasses.

[f1-69]

Re: Safety

ok....ive been waiting a bit to post something , mainly because it is too soon to say anything but this needs to stop. I was there like most of you and the airplane hit about 100 foot from me, I thought i was done for a few seconds as well. With that beeing said I am going to be in reno again in june for PRS and back in sept with as many airplanes as I can find, most people dont realize just how much prep and planning rara puts into this event, I am usally so saftey briefed out buy the end of the week that if I hear the word brief I cringe. I dont think there is anything to do different, they do a great job keeping the pilots,crew and spectators safe, what happened this year was something you just cant plan for. We need to stop all this "what do we need to do diff" and start planning an awesome 49th running of the national champinship airracesagain this is just one pilots perspective

[Lockheed Bob]

Re: Safety

Uplifting. Thats the spirit we need. All the what ifs should be in the hands of NTSB/FAA/RARA. I'm sure the crews telemetry/photos/videos will help in getting the proper outcome. Think 2012. I go way back to the Cleveland air races & I want to be in Reno for my 80th next year. Where else could I help hold down the tail during run ups on F1 Judy at 1:30 Am except Reno.

[f1-69]

Re: Safety

always welcome in my pit bob

[Desertdawg]

Re: Safety

Where else can you be in deep sleep, the windows open to let the cool evening air in and be awaken at 1:00 am by the sweet sound of a big radial or V12 warming up after an all nighter - Reno!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Bring it on guys, we're ready for 2012.

[Race5]

Re: Safety

The accident was caused by a mechanical failure of an aircraft. There's nothing that can be done to the course nor spectator location that would fix it.


My question is: Can a P-51 be flown for a full race without using the trim tabs? I know they are useful for long flights, but are they truly necessary, or just a convenience to reduce work load? Quite a few tabs have been lost in races

If the latter case then I'd suggest barring them from the fastest planes (gold class) Gold racers would all have to be dedicated race planes, with trim tabs removed and the resulting gaps in control surfaces filled in. PERHAPS a bungee-style trim system can be substituted.


--> IF it's not humanly possible to complete a race with the trim tabs, then disregard all this "wondering"...

If the tail incidence is set correctly, trim is not used very much at race speed. It's only used during slow flight. Eliminating them completely would be be feasible.

[Dash]

Re: Safety

The best that I could find for stick forces on a P-51 was here: http://www.flyingmag.com/aircrafts/p...stang?page=0,1 Notice that it says the forces are higher in a D model rather than an A model, just an interesting note.

If the tail incidence is set correctly, trim is not used very much at race speed. It's only used during slow flight. Eliminating them completely would be be feasible.

Ok, I know that everybody is in the know, but it wasn't too long ago that I remember us all discussing that Strega had altered the angle of incidence. Some said this happened, some said it happened at extreme cost, and some say that this is just a racing myth. So in the past few weeks I hear that practically all racing mustangs are doing this which I don't believe. Can somebody that was there when such a mod took place tell me which planes have this?

I disagree that you would want to do away with a trim tab on a P-51 for a couple of reasons. If you leave the AOI alone then you will be pushing the stick forward to keep level while flying around the pylons. Similar reason as to why you don't want to install one switch upside down, you don't want to start having to control opposite of the input you want.

Alter the AOI for high speed flight, then when you slow down such as in a mayday or coming in for landing you have to really manhandle the controls on the way down. I don't like this option either.

Finally, a trim tab, even if in the nuetral position can encounter flutter. Heck, the full on elevator, or vertical stabilizer can encounter flutter. If we're asking for no knee jerk reactions then I don't think we should be talking about removing trim tabs from airplanes that have been flying and racing a long time with very few problems. The problems that have been encountered are not all caused by the same problem and shouldn't be all indicitive of an underlying, systemic problem.

[Ebehne]

Re: Safety

I agree with most everything that has been brought up in this thread and I like that. The fact that were talking about safety and how to keep the air races going is really important, more so now than ever. Unfortunately, if any changes are made to the box seating/grandstands they will no doubt be to please the uninformed public and not to actually improve safety. Some solid engineering modifications to eliminate the failure of trim tabs at speed is the only thing that can do that.

I look forward to doing whatever I can over the next year to help our cause. Also, I look forward to the best year of the air races in its 49th year. A time to remember those that we've lost and a time to honor all of those that kept their cool when we all needed it most. The real tragedy would be not having a time to reflect and remember, to thank those first responders that saved lives and the announcers who brought order to the chaos. The real tragedy would be not having the air races next year, not having a time to celebrate the good with the bad with all of our closest friends.

[RBriscoe]

Re: Safety

Any flying airplane, out of control, can go anywhere. You could put the stands 2 miles away and a plane could get there.

The point is, it is a rare event, and should be treated as such.

Moving the deadline North isn't going to work. Carefull work has been done showing that if a plane were to crash similar to all those that have crashed before, the current deadline works. The FAA seems to think so.

True enough, but it would seem prudent to move the pylons so that the aircraft are in a straight and level attitude going past the grandstands. There probably should be some "gates" the aircraft would be required to pass through so as to avoid them swinging wide to improve approach angles to the next pylon. At least that way there is not a vector which will more likely than not send an out-of-control aircraft toward the spectators. True, a change in the course would mean an end to old records, but that would be a small thing in my view.

It also seems apparent that there are problems with the rigging of a number of P-51s which ought to be reviewed, but that is a separate matter from the course itself.

[RBriscoe]

Re: Safety

Sometimes you just have to do *something* different if you want to move on. Adjusting the course may be lip-service, but if it means Reno may continue...

Just throwing out ideas here. We can shoot them down later.

I think adjusting the course is more than just lip service.

Whether or not the FAA forces change upon RARA, I suspect the insurer will. As a practical matter, without insurance, the races would be unlikely to continue just because of all the ancillary issues, though I suppose it might be possible to get a policy that covers everything except incidents related to aircraft.

The racers and the aircraft will be the more difficult issue.

[51fixer]

Re: Safety

I think adjusting the course is more than just lip service.

Whether or not the FAA forces change upon RARA, I suspect the insurer will. As a practical matter, without insurance, the races would be unlikely to continue just because of all the ancillary issues, though I suppose it might be possible to get a policy that covers everything except incidents related to aircraft.

The racers and the aircraft will be the more difficult issue.

One of the reasons the course has its present shape is it has been modified in the past.
IIRC it was because of housing that has grown up around the airport.
There may not be much room to reshape the course, at least for the jets and Unlimiteds.
With turns in the course at some point the A/C will be pointed at the crowd unless they are moved to the inside of the course. There are issues with that as well.

[RBriscoe]

Re: Safety

One of the reasons the course has its present shape is it has been modified in the past.
IIRC it was because of housing that has grown up around the airport.
There may not be much room to reshape the course, at least for the jets and Unlimiteds.
With turns in the course at some point the A/C will be pointed at the crowd unless they are moved to the inside of the course. There are issues with that as well.

Yes, I know there are limits on what can be done because of encroachment, but it should certainly be examined.

[f1-69]

Re: Safety

you guys are missing the point your trying to fix something that isnt broke........the most dangerous part of this whole thing is getting there

[wingman]

Re: Safety

Amen!

[Lockheed Bob]

Re: Safety

Don't forget we lost a few planes/pilots getting home.I know we all want to fix everything but we should let that be done by the experts.There isn't very many planes that came off the assembly line & never had a problem of some sort. Race planes are experimental & that means what it says. I agree with Phil (F1-69)