Ghost photo w/out trimtab

[gp70442]

Re: Ghost photo w/out trimtab

If you watch the video taken from the east end of the pits, the Ghost pulls up into a high G roll. There's no erratic maneuvering associated with it -- it is a constant G, constant roll flight path until the airplane impacts the ground.

But there WAS some erratic maneuvering. You can't see it on any video I have seen so far but right after the pull up the airplane looked to snap back and forth a couple times. I was watching from the pits. Only the last part of the flight was a constant roll and dive.

GP

[AirDOGGe]

Re: Ghost photo w/out trimtab

With a sharp pull-up like that, I'm sure there were oscillations right afterwards.

Even test pilots, when taking up new planes, will input sharp motions in pitch to the stick to produce oscillations and then see how long it takes the aircraft to dampen them out. They do so to test a new design's stability.

wow you have footage that shows that???? amazing. Is it here somewhere?

Not footage but a still photo. I placed it on page two of this thread, but here's the image link again. Click on it to view the close-up pic.: http://img841.imageshack.us/img841/8...edcloseup1.jpg

Look closely and you can see his nearly all-white helmet up against the instrument panel. The man was out cold, my friend. That's why we can't see him in the side-view photo.

[IcePaq]

Re: Ghost photo w/out trimtab

The lack of the huge scoop under the plane may also cause this plane to require a lot more effort to keep the nose down than a plane with one.

It seems likely that the extreme flutter detached the stick from control of the elevator since all pics seem to show it neutral.

[stuntflyr]

Re: Ghost photo w/out trimtab

Why the airplane rolled and pulled, etc is because of the way the airplane is trimmed to fly at race speed. The horizontal stab is at an optimal incidence setting for high speed flight with the trim tab as streamlined as possible. I was told by a guy with initials SH that Voodoo ran stock phenolic trim tabs and that wasn't the way to go. I assume that GG had metal ones and it was the hot set up.
Kerch, LD, whoever the crew chief is will work on making the airplane trimmed for a high speed, level left turning trim, not unlike circle track cars. That way they go really fast on the course at Reno.
However it was trimmed was disrupted by the failure of whatever flight controls were at the root of the problem Friday and the airplane went where it was trimmed to go. It seemed as if it was exceeding critical angle of attack when it was inverted as the wings kept rolling back and forth, so it must have had a lot of up pitch during that period. The roll could've been affected by weight in each wing as well.

[Randy Haskin]

Re: Ghost photo w/out trimtab

But there WAS some erratic maneuvering. You can't see it on any video I have seen so far but right after the pull up the airplane looked to snap back and forth a couple times. I was watching from the pits. Only the last part of the flight was a constant roll and dive.

GP

FWIW, this is exactly why people are terrible witnesses in accident investigation. Perceptions of what is happening real time, accompanied by the prism through which people remember what they saw, often manifest themselves in people remembering things that did not actually happen.

If numerous videos fail to show it, yet you're remembering something, then you've got to go with Occam's Razor when trying to determine what actually happened.

[Randy Haskin]

Re: Ghost photo w/out trimtab

Quote: " From a video that was on youtube from the fenceline,"

Where, the only thing I see is grandstand videos. Can you link please?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TaWB_7RGTQ4

It seems likely that the extreme flutter detached the stick from control of the elevator since all pics seem to show it neutral.

Or the pilot wasn't pulling back on the stick.

[Pylon1_Mark]

Re: Ghost photo w/out trimtab

The roll effect could have also been created with the loss of trim tab on left elevator.

Could be engine torque... which would actually be my guess.

[AirDOGGe]

Re: Ghost photo w/out trimtab

Yes, of course. If the linkage to the tab breaks and it is set free to flutter in the wind, then it is no longer doing anything to assist in positioning the stabilizer and controlling the aircraft, just as if it had departed the aircraft fully.

Yes, it could have been still attached to the airframe during the pull-up and still cause the incident.


I believe we will know the answer when we find out WHERE the tab was found. If they find it far out on the course then that would suggest that it HAD departed before the pull-up, as suspected by most.


We'll see.

[spacegrrrl]

Re: Ghost photo w/out trimtab

What video? Under lock and key I presume. What a horrible, tragic loss.
Sad sad day for all.

I was over by the F-1 hangar around 6:00 Friday and a photographer had just come from the media center. It seemed the were trying to collect any useful photographic and video for the investigation. The fellow I talked to said they had video showing clear elevator flutter.

I think in cases like this a lot of photos and video are collected that never surface to the public. For example it sounds like some folks on this forum have relevant photos they are submitting to the investigation that they haven't shared otherwise. The MA-II rudder flutter was captured on video and I don't believe that video was ever shared.

Got home last night and I still have that 6 seconds looping in my head....

Spaccegrrl

[a4gturn]

Re: Ghost photo w/out trimtab

Having witnessed the entire event first hand, Randy Haskin decribes it exactly as it happened...I'll never forget the sound.....

[DWYER]

Re: Ghost photo w/out trimtab

That was the most eerie sound I've heard from a warbird. I will never forget that sound. Sounded like the propeller was being ripped off from the plane.

[wolfee]

Re: Ghost photo w/out trimtab

Also, reports of a mayday keep being stated. I had my scanner on full and earphones buried, I never once heard a mayday call.. only thing my mind hears is red flag red flag. Them a few minutes later pilots calling for a run way and being told to land on another. One pilot (not sure who it was) was insistent to land 2 6. Was there infact a mayday called and I didnt hear it?

[Dash]

Re: Ghost photo w/out trimtab

Wolfee, I believe this was mistaken and taken from eye witness accounts. People saw the plane pitch up and I think decided for themselves it must have been a mayday when in fact it was more in the mode of failure.

[Reever]

Re: Ghost photo w/out trimtab

FWIW, this is exactly why people are terrible witnesses in accident investigation. Perceptions of what is happening real time, accompanied by the prism through which people remember what they saw, often manifest themselves in people remembering things that did not actually happen.

If numerous videos fail to show it, yet you're remembering something, then you've got to go with Occam's Razor when trying to determine what actually happened.

The "witness" thing is a very interesting phenomenon. Since my first year at Reno in 78, I have witnessed several accidents. And it never ceases to amaze me. You can have ten people standing in the same group and see the same event, and they will all tell you something different.

[RCoulter]

Re: Ghost photo w/out trimtab

+1 on not hearing an actual "Mayday" call. I had my scanner on also and never heard it being called out.