Fighting For Freedom - Protests??? Protesting What??

[AAFO_WSagar]

I know that I'm probably in violation of our own forum rules by posting this in the Air Racing section, as well as inviting a controversial debate on the subject but I've bit my tongue/fingers long enough..

I live in the Portland, OR. area and we had our little round of "protests" here and I'm sure many of you had the same in your local area..

My question is: What are they protesting?

Is Sadam their hero?

How can anyone of good conscience, by their protests, support this man and the horrible things he's done to his people and what he might well do to anyone he can reach with his weapons if we allow him to stay in power?

I'm as against war as anyone but there are times when we absolutely have to do *something* about the power mad dictators of the world..

Suppose we had sat back and allowed Adolf Hitler to continue his plans against the free world?

There were certainly those who, at that time, were against the United States entering that conflict. Looking back, "what-if" we had not gotten involved?

If Hitler had been allowed more time, his weapons were far advanced beyond what anyone else was developing at that time.. how different the world would have been today.

As we all sit here viewing those pictures of dead Americans shown to us nearly every hour on CNN, men who were apparently executed after being taken prisoner, how can anyone protest what our government is doing to stop this madness?

If we have to go in and root him out before he becomes able to do wide spread damage to the world, is this not better than allowing him to become so powerful that his daily actions make September 11 look like a picnic?

I'm just amazed and saddened at the lack of foresight that some of us Americans seem to have at this time.

Protesting this war, at this time, will only serve to make it last longer and very likely cause the deaths of more of our brothers and sisters, sons and daughters.

I only hope that those of you who might read this who might think of participating in such protest actions will think about the results of your actions... you could well have the blood of those people on your hands..

I'm sorry if this message offends anyone... We are a free nation and the rights of those to protest and speak their views is one of the things that these men and women are fighting for. I only hope that everyone who might consider doing so will also consider what their actions might do to further the length of this conflict.

We are there now, the time to protest this war is over. We now have the obligation to support our government and the men and women in harm's way.

Wayne Sagar

[Leo]

protests

Hi Wayne!
You would probably offend less people on this site than any other.
I agree, now is the time to stand behind our armed forces with total support, no matter what you're personal views on the war.
I feel that a lot of these regimes, particularly Saddam and his clan, are of the opinion that the American public has no stomach for this. Kill a few of us, show some brutality, the people will cry out and we will back out as we did in Somalia and Lebanon.

The protesters have every right to be outspoken, but in their shortsightedness are playing into his hands. We are commited and any hesitation now would show weakness, and the thought that we are easy prey is what got us into this situation.

And I feel for those who really are commited against this war and want to voice their opinion rationally, as they are drowned out by the "Gay Transexuals for peace and Jesus" (as one banner said) and those that use this as a forum for any viewpoint and an excuse to be violent.

I have several friends serving over their. They have left their homes, families, friends and lives to fight on foriegn soil so I don't ever have to fight here. Anything I do that does not support their efforts, undermines them.
I am honored and proud to know them, and proud of what they are doing for me!

Off my soapbox, thanks!

Leo

[AAFO_WSagar]

Re: protests

Originally posted by Leo
The protesters have every right to be outspoken, but in their shortsightedness are playing into his hands. We are commited and any hesitation now would show weakness, and the thought that we are easy prey is what got us into this situation.

Hi Leo, that's what really bothers me about this situation. Our people are in the air and on the ground over there and if those protesting are not aware of the fact that Sadam and his henchmen are watching everything going on over here, they need to get CNN and see how this stuff plays on the air 24/7...

Yes, we all have the right to our opinions and voicing them, that is what makes this country so great.. but common sense must rule here..

The protesters need to think about this... "what-if" their voices were heard and the decision to pull out was made today..

More people would be killed in that action than in going in..

We're in, we have to finish the job this time, they need to support the effort or remain silent, for now, voice thier opinions later...

We have to get this job done and get out of there with as few casualties on both sides as possible..

I pray for our boys and girls over there fighting and dying at this moment!!!

Wayne

[Sparrow]

I would just like to know how many of the protestors realise they have the "right" to protest because of all the American soldiers that sacrificed their all so they could do so. Look at how the "protests" went in Tianiman Square, those folks don't have the luxories to voice their dissent or approval as we do. Sparrow

[AAFO_WSagar]

Sparrow,

I doubt they really *think* about that.. Judging from the bulk of the protesters here in our area, it looked more just like a "happening" rather than a really well thought out moral dilema.

I am almost certain that there are people reading this who disagree with the war, despite the overal "hawkish" nature of most of us here..

My biggest point is, despite what you might think of what we're doing over there.. we're there.. We can't turn back, even if it were decided that it was a bad idea (which I'd have a hard time being convinced was true)

Like a lot of us, I'm a pretty peaceful guy.. if the world was a nice friendly place with 99% of the people on it as benign as most of us American's are.. and let's say, California decided to whoop on Nevada just because they allowed smoking in their casinos.. then I think I'd take issue with that..

What we have in Iraq is an evil, cruel despot that has way too much money and ambition for his or the rest of the world's good..

We can't sit back and wait for him to become so powerful that he can rule any larger portion of the world than he currently does..

That is the logic of the current situation. Those guys on the ground and in the air over there and our government are not simply kicking the Iraq's a$$ because we have nothing better to do.. we're there because we have to be there..

Agree with the logic or not, now that we're there.. protesting is only going to make it worse, last longer and get more people killed, on both sides..

Not good!

Wayne

PS *by edit*

I'm remembering some debating that I did on this subject prior to our going over there with someone from Canada (Not Wingman) and their view of us "American's" was that we just do this stuff because we're like a big bully.. That saddens me.. We have not excuited any of our prisoners.. We treat them with dignity, feed and water them, tend their wounds and send them back to their familes.. Those Marines and Troopers, Pilots and everyone else over there are not sadistic people. They are just like the rest of us.. Leave us and them alone, leave your neighbors alone, be nice to the people you live with, and nobody will bother you. That's what it's all about.. We're not the bully here, we're the big friendly guy who can't stand to see someone beating up on anyone... why people can't see this logic is a mystery to me..

[Leo]

protests

The problem is, most people believe that others will act as they do and all will live in peace. Be nice and everyone will love you, and the world will be a better place.
Security comes from others either respecting you or being afraid of attacking you. Besides the "coalition" we have, the only person who seems to understand that right now is Saddam.
We have undertaken the job of removing a threat before it is powerful enough to do us serious harm. This will not only benefit us, but most of the free world. Those that can't see that have no vision and little sense of history. It will never be popular and will always be doubted.
Would the world have stood by uncomplaining while France rolled into Germany to stop Hitler's first moves, before he became unstoppable? Probably not, and the sympathy would have been with Hitler.
I believe that now that this has started, the country needs to maintain unity in what we believe is a just cause. Protest with your votes.
The ability to argue this is one of our great rights, and probably the most important one they are over there fighting to give to the Iraqi people and preserve for us. But with it comes the need to suffer fools.....


I wonder what the Baghdad police would do to 100 protesters chained together blocking an intersection?

[Mayo]

Bad Idea

Lets take a bad idea and run with it.

My in-laws live in Nova Scotia and they get better news coverage of what is happening in Iraq then we do. It's vary difficult to pass judgment about something when one isn't even educated properly. Once the news passes through the U.S. filters I doubt anyone can make an informed decision.

Noam Chomsky I've heard say that we're supposedly in Iraq on a humanitarian mission, something he appeared to doubt.
Where was the humanitarian mission for Ruwanda? Did Ruwanda not have any commodities to controll?

This is a problem with imperialism, the working people have to pay three billion to defend a private two billion dollar investment.

So, after paying taxs to provide Texaco with controll of more oil wells, why am I paying over three dollars a gallon for avgas?

[Randy Haskin]

Are you being devil's advocate or making a serious political commentary?

[Unregistered]

Thoughts

Perhaps the protestors disagree only with the war. Not the troops. Much like the Vietnam war era, we had protest and it was good, as we found out it didn't accoplish much. In retrospect it was a place we shouldn't have been. The United States unlike Iraq allows people to voice an opinion. Only time will tell as to the righteousness of going there. The protestors have seen the lies of the government as to the reasons for going. We've had plenty of nefarious rulers that we haven't made war with. Is it because they don't have a natural resource an American corporation is interested in? France, Germany and Russia have contracts to develop oil fields there and if Saddam is deposed, the contracts will most likely go to England and the U.S.. How much will American companies make on the development and reconstruction of Iraq? Haliburton and others ring a bell? It appears that this if primarily for oil. It appears that this is effectively an assassination of a foreign head of state. What has an Iraqi done to you? Yes Saddam is the worst of the worst, but he is their's. People have the governments they want and deserve collectively not individually. The United States helped install him in the first place. He only became a problem when he stopped being our puppet. When Reagan was in office he was our buddy under the enemy of our enemy is our friend. Remember Iran's enemy was Iraq. Saddam was known at the time to be a terrible manic individual but we had more control when we had kings to deal with as opposed to democracies. Does our government really want Iraq to be a democracy? What plans do they have for after the war is won? When you go back in history and look at protest, the vast majority of them were correct in their protest! Protest is as American as baseball and apple pie. I don't distain the protest as to me it is a good reminder that we're in the best country to allow dissent and hopefully only debate, not violence.

[AAFO_WSagar]

Re: Thoughts

Originally posted by Unregistered
Perhaps the protestors disagree only with the war. Not the troops. Much like the Vietnam war era, we had protest and it was good, as we found out it didn't accoplish much. In retrospect it was a place we shouldn't have been.

Something we all should do is learn from our mistakes. If, indeed, it was a mistake to be in Viet Nam, and debating that particular point is not the aim of what I'm about to say.. then we did learn from our mistakes there and we don't seem to fight battles in the same way we did there..

Then if we as a country can learn from that, how about individually if we American's learn from the mistake that many of us made during that conflict.. that being. Our protests were heard by those whom we fought. They took this as a weakness in our spirit and held out for many years where they might have come to the bargaining table much sooner had they felt we, as a nation, had the resolve to carry on with our cause.. be it right or wrong.. and again, I do not mean or want to debate that particular issue..

My point is with this entire thread.. Yes, we do certainly have the right to our opinions and the right to express them, that is, after all, what these young men and women are fighting for.

In my opinion, we may have the right to say and think what we want but, when our brothers and sisters, our sons and daughters are in harm's way, for *whatever* the reason...

Then we have the RESPONSIBLITY to keep our traps shut until they are home!

This is not about the right to voice our opinions or demonstrate them in public... it's about common sense and getting this thing over as quickly as possible.

Think what you will, discuss what you will but don't let those whom we are engaged in battle with know that you are thinking it!

If you walk the streets of this country with protest signs in your hands and this battle we're in becomes a stalemate or drags on one day longer than it has to.. Know that you, standing in the clean streets of this country have the blood of those men and women on BOTH sides of this war on YOUR hands..

This is the only point I'm trying to make in this thread.. the reality of public demonstrations in this country is to make our enemy feel that if he holds out or kills a lot of our soldiers, we will tuck our tails in and go home..

That, my fellow countrymen will get people killed.. that will put the blood of those people on the protesters hands..

Just know that.. that's all I ask..

Wayne

[Unregistered]

a question or two

noticing the "protesters" here in Portland that were causing all our troubles (blocking bridges , roads ,damaging private property etc ) two questions came to mind
1) if you believe in what you are protesting so much why are you wearing masks,scarfs around your faces, etc, basically hiding your idenity?
2) if you feel this strong against this administration did you vote in the last election?

just my 2 cents worth