Frenesi is Growing

[wingman]

Re: Frenesi is Growing

I think the thread is long since hijacked -- a couple of times at least, and partly by me.

One last thought, though. To this day nobody, meaning #77 and #232, has shown the ability to run Reno any faster than Dago or Strega with a well-running Mouse. I suspect that before anybody gets into "blue sky" exhaust schemes or other wild mods, we will see attention contiue to go to the little stuff, and to making Merlins live again reasonably consistently at 140 inches and 3400 rpm...

[AAFO_WSagar]

Re: Frenesi is Growing

This probably was pie in the sky stuff but found the story from 1998 done by Mark "Cobra" Kallio.. interesting read..

http://www.aafo.com/racing/news/98/intrepid.htm

(cleaned it up to today's page design, a bit closer anyway)

[51fixer]

Re: Frenesi is Growing

The Air that goes THROUGH an airplane is just as detrimental to the L/D as the air that goes AROUND the airplane. That Shroud prevents air from going INTO the cowling and STOPPING at the firewall, Giving the Exhaust the opportunity to create THRUST! I was There in Cleveland when Dwight gave a talk at the Society of Air Racing Historians (I think it was '93) where he proposed to the audience the next Strega up-date...Routing the exhaust into the scoop and Re-Igniting it! Shaking my head, I bought him mucho Bass Ale and told him the story about the guys that painted the decks of their SORC Racing Sailboats Black, to make the spinnakers lift in light air, he bought a painting I did of Strega. The rest is Hangover History...D.

Going back to the great NAA people and their great engineering I will inform you that there is an inner shroud. The stacks actually sandwich a stainless box to the engine. This box is pressed against by the upper and side cowlings creating the seal which you speak of. It was there from the 1st B and C made. The outer sleek shroud came along later and actually fastens to the box by dzuses. The inner and outer shroud actually shake around and move with the engine. That is one reason they get beat up so bad. Cowling doesn't move, shrouds do.
The early Bs actually had a scoop that would pop out right behind the exhaust stacks on the L/H or B bank side to pick up hot air for carb heat. I don't know the effectiveness of sucking already burnt air as it was changed to suck in warm air from the engine compartment on later Bs, Cs and Ds.
There is WWII photos of a pissed off Whisner (pilot) standing next to a newly painted Princess. No, not her but the P-51B. He was POed because he had to fly an A/C named for a Princess. If you look close you will see a small door just aft of the exhaust. That is the hot air scoop. After Princess was lost you notice there wasn't a PE II. Thats why Vlado flies Moonbeam. They are both coded HO-W.
Rich

[David E. Wells]

Re: Frenesi is Growing

You Missed the point... GO to Formula 1, Go to Boil-Off...it's not The Cowling, it's the Holes...bellcobraIV where are you? 3400rpm!..that's only a shutter speed, And Skip Never Needed 140...D.

[51fixer]

Re: Frenesi is Growing

You Missed the point... GO to Formula 1, Go to Boil-Off...it's not The Cowling, it's the Holes...bellcobraIV where are you? 3400rpm!..that's only a shutter speed, And Skip Never Needed 140...D.

I have greatly enjoyed the journey this thread has taken. I hope my explanations have enlightened some and it has brought back some great memories.
The aircraft that this thread has revolved around were racers in the past. Those owned by Jim Beasley and now his son Jim Beasley Jr haven't raced since the early to mid 80's. They were and continue to be representative of the aircraft and the brave men who flew them under sometimes horrible conditions of our nations past. They are painted like specific WWII aircraft to celebrate that heritage. Today we work with the USAF in support of the heritage flight program which Ed and Jim helped start 10 years ago.
For most unlimiteds a very small part of their life is spent rounding a course. Almost all the racers are either close to stock or sport flyers. Except for a few hours each year their lives normally bring great enjoyment to the owners, airshow spectators and the like that get to watch them from their home base or the airshows they go to.
If they have the desire and are willing to spend enormous amounts of money and time they go race. Most have to spend a limited amount of money. They hope nothing breaks and that some or most of their expenses are covered. Most of all they want to be as safe as possible and not hurt the hardware.
It is cool to dream up new stuff to do. To the enthusiast the faster and more exotic the better. But for most racers being exotic is the opposite direction from being safe and not hurting the hardware.
I enjoy throwing out the knowledge that I have along with the memories of what I have participated in. I am neither a know it all or the worlds most decorated crewmember. Just to help you know where I come from I haven't been to Reno since the Pond Racer was destroyed. Reno was the highlight of my year up to that point. I helped Rick get in and put the canopy on for his final flight.
So excuse me for not being the one to jump on the latest and greatest stuff. I enjoy splaining some of the stuff that has happened. Some of the hows and whys if I know about it.
The way I see it if you know the best way to make someone go faster please either be signed up on a crew or have your own racer to do with as you wish. Remember that often the benefits of any improvement my be slight but the cost and the saftey issues may be great.
The aircraft I am involved with now will probably not race again with the present owner. The hows and whys of making them go faster isn't part of our operation any more.
Jim Sr. spent a ton of money with Z for engines and Gossling for the airframe. He broke a nosecase landing short at Chino. Had one engine which created a harmonics problem that made the aircraft shake. He had all kinds of issues when set up for racing and the answer always seemed to be spend more money.
That soured him for racing after a few years of it but he continued to fly until he passed away amost 3 years ago at age 78 I believe.
That is the rest of the story.
Rich

[51fixer]

Re: Frenesi is Growing

Going back to the great NAA people and their great engineering I will inform you that there is an inner shroud. The stacks actually sandwich a stainless box to the engine. This box is pressed against by the upper and side cowlings creating the seal which you speak of. It was there from the 1st B and C made. The outer sleek shroud came along later and actually fastens to the box by dzuses. The inner and outer shroud actually shake around and move with the engine. That is one reason they get beat up so bad. Cowling doesn't move, shrouds do.
The early Bs actually had a scoop that would pop out right behind the exhaust stacks on the L/H or B bank side to pick up hot air for carb heat. I don't know the effectiveness of sucking already burnt air as it was changed to suck in warm air from the engine compartment on later Bs, Cs and Ds.
There is WWII photos of a pissed off Whisner (pilot) standing next to a newly painted Princess. No, not her but the P-51B. He was POed because he had to fly an A/C named for a Princess. If you look close you will see a small door just aft of the exhaust. That is the hot air scoop. After Princess was lost you notice there wasn't a PE II. Thats why Vlado flies Moonbeam. They are both coded HO-W.
Rich

This link should take you to the photo of Whisner in front of his B model. The scoop door is just aft of the exhaust opening above ZAB in Elizabeth.

http://www.littlefriends.co.uk/gallery.php?Group=352&Style=item&origStyle=list&Item=6&Temp=124&searchString=

[speeddemon]

Re: Frenesi is Growing

There is WWII photos of a pissed off Whisner (pilot) standing next to a newly painted Princess. No, not her but the P-51B. He was POed because he had to fly an A/C named for a Princess. If you look close you will see a small door just aft of the exhaust. That is the hot air scoop. After Princess was lost you notice there wasn't a PE II. Thats why Vlado flies Moonbeam. They are both coded HO-W.
Rich

Trying to remember here....but didn't he do that because Moonbeam McSwine was the 'opposite' of Princess Elizabeth? She was the ugly girl from Lil' Abner, wasn't she?

[51fixer]

Re: Frenesi is Growing

Trying to remember here....but didn't he do that because Moonbeam McSwine was the 'opposite' of Princess Elizabeth? She was the ugly girl from Lil' Abner, wasn't she?

From what I understand the Princess was going to tour the base so they emblazoned her name on the side of a Mustang in her honor. Today she is Queen Elizabeth but back then she was a teenager.
Whisner's A/C was chosen for this but I am told it was something he wasn't keen on.
Re read the question. A google of Lil Abner only showed one image of Mooneam so I couldn't tell to much from that. She may be a country bumpkin with a corncob pipe but from the one image I would say she is a ways from ugly.
Rich

[440_Magnum]

Re: Frenesi is Growing

! I was There in Cleveland when Dwight gave a talk at the Society of Air Racing Historians (I think it was '93) where he proposed to the audience the next Strega up-date...Routing the exhaust into the scoop and Re-Igniting it!

Lighting Mouse farts. Sounds like something Tiger would get a kick out of....

[51fixer]

Re: Frenesi is Growing

I am attaching some pics of the inner and outer shrouds.
I am on top of a 8' ladder in our secret stuff area so the quality isn't the greatest but it I hope it gives an idea of these parts for those who haven't ever seen them.
Inner shroud is a box which is held in place by the exhaust stacks.
The one in back was run on Bald Eagle when it was raced. In a close up you can see how beat up it is. There is a large cracked out area under the 1st stack mount point and the lower fwd area is missing. I have also had to repair the cowling where it presses against this box.
The outer shroud is the sleek cover for the stacks. It attaches to the inner box. The area where it attaches is covered by the upper and side cowls which press against the shrouds to offer somewhat of a seal so air and exhaust does't flow through the engine compartment in large amounts.
There isn't much exhaust that creeps into the engine compartment that will leave any residue. Only when a stack cracks do I get that kind of a problem so the seal is decent. When a stack cracks and parts fly off they can strike the horizontal and even inbed themselves in the leading edge of the horizontal. That is why we are replacing the horizontal on Frenesi. The leading edge had several dents with one big one that was actually cracked for over an inch. Previous restores just bondoed over it. The crack seemed to be growing. It also suffers from corrosion so I well get this one rebuilt in the future.
Rich

[MLenoch]

Re: Frenesi is Growing

MOONBEAM WAS NOT UGLY!!
VL

[Apteryx]

Re: Frenesi is Growing

MOONBEAM WAS NOT UGLY!!
VL

For you youngens: http://dreamers.com/maestrosdelcomic...bner7Thumb.jpg

[MLenoch]

Re: Frenesi is Growing

Now, that's my girl!!
Thx...Apteryx!
VL

[David E. Wells]

Re: Frenesi is Growing

"The way I see it if you know the best way to make someone go faster please either be signed up on a crew or have your own racer to do with as you wish. Remember that often the benefits of any improvement my be slight but the cost and the saftey issues may be great."



Fixer, Please don't get me wrong, I respect and admire you and anyone that endeavors to preserve the Heritage of a P-51 or any Memorial to the struggles to preserve our Freedom. I was just trying to clarify what I gleened about "racing" exhausts from a couple of weeks I spent at Dwight & Rose Thorn's Merlin Mechanical Garden & Theme Park at Gilroy CA a few years ago. While I was there I cleaned parts from the transport case that was going to be the Museum of Flying's Mouse Motor, the one that threw a rod before it got to do 500mph. On another occasion I tore down a Merlin 68, to the crankshaft, it was a Great Experience, and I got paid for it! Dwight, Steve Bartholf, Sparrow and I had a long discussion one day about "tuned" exhaust length...A "tuned" exhaust for an engine used to run at full power for the length of the race at Reno would be a Long Thing, like 10', it's a back pressure thing, dangerous,Expensive, and "Draggy". So, the best option is to reduce the wetted area with the smallest stacks and smooth over the Hole in the Cowling with the tightest shroud you can get, the loss of power is minmal, but the set-up would be better for Drag-Racing. By, the way, I saw that Stu Eberhart had New shrouds for sale in his pit a couple years ago. I'm an Aviation Artiste, all this experience goes to art, I'd Love to Race, but I don't want to own a Race Plane, And I Really Hate getting Dirty...I'd Love to paint your Airplane...Regards...D.

[51fixer]

Re: Frenesi is Growing

"The way I see it if you know the best way to make someone go faster please either be signed up on a crew or have your own racer to do with as you wish. Remember that often the benefits of any improvement my be slight but the cost and the saftey issues may be great."



Fixer, Please don't get me wrong, I respect and admire you and anyone that endeavors to preserve the Heritage of a P-51 or any Memorial to the struggles to preserve our Freedom. I was just trying to clarify what I gleened about "racing" exhausts from a couple of weeks I spent at Dwight & Rose Thorn's Merlin Mechanical Garden & Theme Park at Gilroy CA a few years ago. While I was there I cleaned parts from the transport case that was going to be the Museum of Flying's Mouse Motor, the one that threw a rod before it got to do 500mph. On another occasion I tore down a Merlin 68, to the crankshaft, it was a Great Experience, and I got paid for it! Dwight, Steve Bartholf, Sparrow and I had a long discussion one day about "tuned" exhaust length...A "tuned" exhaust for an engine used to run at full power for the length of the race at Reno would be a Long Thing, like 10', it's a back pressure thing, dangerous,Expensive, and "Draggy". So, the best option is to reduce the wetted area with the smallest stacks and smooth over the Hole in the Cowling with the tightest shroud you can get, the loss of power is minmal, but the set-up would be better for Drag-Racing. By, the way, I saw that Stu Eberhart had New shrouds for sale in his pit a couple years ago. I'm an Aviation Artiste, all this experience goes to art, I'd Love to Race, but I don't want to own a Race Plane, And I Really Hate getting Dirty...I'd Love to paint your Airplane...Regards...D.

David,
Sorry to hear of your aversion to getting dirty.
New shrouds are out there and I put a new set of inners on BE when I put the Sparrow motor in a year ago.
Maybe we'll have to get you to do a rendering of BE in 335th FS markings.
We are hearing rumors that she might have been in the same squadron as the original Ridge Runner.
BE coded WD with a red nose. That would be something.
Rich