HA-1112 photos

[Shawn Aro]

Re: HA-1112 photos

here are some more shawn

[speeddemon]

Re: HA-1112 photos

Great pics from your dad, Shawn.

I think there are two kinds of BF-109/HA-1112's in the world---those that HAVE groundlooped, and those that WILL.

Chuck Lyford had a very interesting take on this a few months ago, and pointed out something that I had never noticed. The landing gear, obviously, is very narrow-tracked. I always figured that this was the primary reason for them always getting away from the pilots on the ground. But he showed me that the wheels are also canted 'inward' slightly--that they were designed to take off and land on grass runways, and thus they could somewhat 'slide' across the surface. But on a hard surface, when one wheel grabs and the other one doesn't...because its canted 'in' the plane tends to veer in the opposite direction as the tire that is grabbing. And all it takes is one over-correction by the pilot, and it turns into a diverging oscellation....and that's pretty much all she wrote.

Don't know how true that is with the accidents that have happened....but it certainly made a lot of sense.

[Leo]

Re: HA-1112 photos

It was Lefty Gardner that likened landing it to "making love to a beautiful woman, with your wife watching. You just can't quite enjoy it"
I've always wondered why other narrow gear aircraft (the Spitfire and F4F come to mind) do not seem to have the same issues. The toe-in would make sense.

[stuntflyr]

Re: HA-1112 photos

Shawn, thanks for the picks,

I watched Johnny Maloney fly it a couple of times after it was repaired at the Museum. He made his 360 approach very normally and then as it would come around where you could judge the forward speed it was evident that his "on speed" target was slower than say, a Mustang. Then he rounded out dramatically, touched down three point and the airplane would stop in a very short distance. He made it look easy, and the wind was calm.

My Dad sent a guy to Chicago to check out some HA-1112's in '85 for possible purchase. I asked a few in the know guys about what they would do to make the airplane a little or a lot easier to operate, and the most often repeated thing was powerful fade free brakes.

Chris...

[Jim58]

Re: HA-1112 photos

Back in October I was at the P O F near the Grand Canyon.
they have a 109 the first thing that caught my eye is that not only is the landing gear Toe'd out (way out) but it has an extreme neg. camber angle. I have absolutely NO Experience in how a AC handles (read as non-flight rated) BUT I do have a bit of experience with making a vehicle go where you expect it to go. and in my "opinion" both of these characteristics together will produce a vehicle that is "directional and unpredictable" (darty).
I work with a guy who's father flew 109'S (thats a whole nother story) I will have to ask him about how he managed to survive landings.
just food for the thread......what do you think?

Jim

[Uh-sure]

Re: HA-1112 photos

"Brakes are GOOD! You never really appreciate them till you have none."

Chris,

What was the going price 20 years ago for a HA-1112?

I wonder if the little beast would be more manageable with a bigger tail wheel and some Red Line brakes!

Shawn,

I think that was actually Bubba Beal's second such accident of the year, I believe he also had a prop killing boo boo at Oshkosh. US

[Shawn Aro]

Re: HA-1112 photos

I was standing next to my dad and he went up with the spitfire it was flown by jerry Billings and they were getting ready for a race and we saw Bubba come in next he ground loup the next day my dad was walking next to the spit fire and he look and he said the spit fire had a kill marking on it Shawn. not sure about Oskosh i would hafe to go toe Nag news letters and find out

[stuntflyr]

Re: HA-1112 photos

I think that the gear has a little toe in with the tail up and as the tail goes down the camber changes and the toe in goes out.
Hence the one attitude (ever seen an airplane at the tie down with the tail up?) landing by Johnny.
Chris...

[Jason S.]

Re: HA-1112 photos

Back in October I was at the P O F near the Grand Canyon.
they have a 109 the first thing that caught my eye is that not only is the landing gear Toe'd out (way out) but it has an extreme neg. camber angle. I have absolutely NO Experience in how a AC handles (read as non-flight rated) BUT I do have a bit of experience with making a vehicle go where you expect it to go. and in my "opinion" both of these characteristics together will produce a vehicle that is "directional and unpredictable" (darty).
I work with a guy who's father flew 109'S (thats a whole nother story) I will have to ask him about how he managed to survive landings.
just food for the thread......what do you think?

Jim

Here are some pics I took a few years ago.

[Race 22 Crew]

Re: HA-1112 photos

Just a little information about the handling of one of the flying HA1112. The owner and I talked at Reno in '05. I did some work on the aircraft years ago while it was being restored.

The owner told me he had (if I remember correctly) 2 or 3 flights in the aircraft. He flies Straw Boss at Hollister and has a bit of time built up in it and various taildraggers including his ME108. He was honest about the aircraft and believe it was a bit much for him. Skip flies the aircraft for him and I understand even he has been off the runway at least twice with the aircraft.

It is a handfull on the ground. I'm sure they have gone over the gear more then once, but I would think they could work the toe in/out and camber to settle it out a little bit. But, that is a lot of engine on the front of that little airframe.... would love to see it turn the pylons for at least a couple of laps.

Would love to see the aircraft back on the ramp again. I missed the year Skip brought it to Reno for display.

Warren

[Tin Man]

Re: HA-1112 photos

This landing thing doesn't make sense. If skip Holm and others say its hard to land than it is. However, there seems to be lots of archive movies of them taking off and landing in loose formation without serious mishap. Perhaps the gear camber and toe-in was designed for wet grass (war conditions) and not paved runways.
Tom

[AAFO_WSagar]

Re: HA-1112 photos

This landing thing doesn't make sense. If skip Holm and others say its hard to land than it is. However, there seems to be lots of archive movies of them taking off and landing in loose formation without serious mishap. Perhaps the gear camber and toe-in was designed for wet grass (war conditions) and not paved runways.
Tom

Tom, I think that is the case... Weren't they able to take off pretty much into the wind in all cases from those large landing fields back in "the day"...

That and, as stated, most if not all of the German fields were grass or dirt...

[Jim58]

Re: HA-1112 photos

Here are some pics I took a few years ago.

Obviously toe "in" from the pics.....can u say brain F^#T

[51fixer]

Re: HA-1112 photos

The pics are of POF's original 109G.
It hasn't flown since the end of the war.
As a teen ager in the late 70's we were doing some cleaning to it and pulled some panels. Inside the cover fwd of the windscreen there was the name and unit of a GI written in red paint using a brush of some kind.
The ex-Bubba Beal aircraft had extensive mods done during the POF rebuild and sports better brakes along with cosmetic changes FWF to hide the merlin.
Rich

[Air Race Addict]

Re: HA-1112 photos

The pics are of POF's original 109G.
It hasn't flown since the end of the war.
As a teen ager in the late 70's we were doing some cleaning to it and pulled some panels. Inside the cover fwd of the windscreen there was the name and unit of a GI written in red paint using a brush of some kind.
The ex-Bubba Beal aircraft had extensive mods done during the POF rebuild and sports better brakes along with cosmetic changes FWF to hide the merlin.
Rich

So Rich,
You say it has a Merlin in it? Is it inverted? It looks pretty normal for a -109. Just curious. Those guys are good