Upper limit on R-3350 in horsepower.

[440_Magnum]

Re: Upper limit on R-3350 in horsepower.

Yup, the Buick will run - as usual - at a VERY dependable 455 mph.

Tim Adams and I almost got flattened by Race#8 last year out in the valley during qualifying (50-60 ft overhead). She ran wide after calling for the clock. It was... concussive.

How can anyone not love that beast! The R-3350 "stock" Sea Furies are impressive enough. The last time I saw Howard Pardue fly his aerobatics routine in 'Fury' at an airshow, the racket put the B-17s and B-25s to shame.

[Propellerhead]

Re: Upper limit on R-3350 in horsepower.

How can anyone not love that beast! The R-3350 "stock" Sea Furies are impressive enough. The last time I saw Howard Pardue fly his aerobatics routine in 'Fury' at an airshow, the racket put the B-17s and B-25s to shame.

Dreadnought is awesome even when it's just loafing around above Stead. I love the sound of it just chugging and rumbling away up there!

[Red]

Re: Upper limit on R-3350 in horsepower.

Interesting side note was that the chief test engineer on the R-2800 pushed his engines to over 5200 HP for hours while his co-workers were trying to develop the 4360. While this was on brand-new, wartime-budget-be-damned parts, it makes me wonder if a little modern technology could create a 4000 HP R-2800 with enough life for a dozen races.

Red, what would a Yak-3 do with 4000 ponies?

Eric

I too have read that article and was quite amazed. Most of the power came with the aid of only ADI if i remember correctly. I wonder why no one has gone this direction yet?

Anyway, Steadfast is running and flying perfectly. The oil cooler spray system is working well. Hopefully the afterbody will be installed by Reno. Paint and smoothing will have to wait until after. Carb has been rebuilt and it runs sweet! New windscreen going on as we speak. Things are looking good.

We've also got a new t-shirt hottie, Jessie, who will be selling shirts for us at Reno. Anybody get a shot of her at Santa Rosa last weekend?

Can't wait.

Red

[Bill Marsh]

PW 2800 on putting out 4 or 5 grand!

The attached articles on a PW engineer using water / meth / alco injection to keep motor from melting down.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Sure, i built nitro and meth V8s along time ago

Sure, i washed out lots of cylinders and rings

Sure, i spent big $$$ trying to keep a lube film in the cylinders

AND Sure, i couldnt (and nobody else could either )



So reading this PW article that after a 4 or 5 grand (HP) successful test there "was water / meth mixture dripping / pouring out of the headers".....!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I was not stupid 20 years ago and i aint stupid today..... what the f////
gives.

bm



ps.... the money is all gone, but splaine me

[spacegrrrl]

Re: Upper limit on R-3350 in horsepower.

So for what it's worth, back when Levelor Blinds had Blind Man's Bluff (now Critical Mass) I attended a talk in Phoenix at an SAE meeting put on by the team after the first Reno attempt. They claimed that they had started with the 3350 out of Skyraiders as this was the "best" version from a durability standpoint and that they had put one on a dyno (which was a challenge because there aren't many dynos that can accomodate the H.P. they expected) and ran it for some period of time at 6000HP (the limit of the dyno) on alcohol. They said the engine appeared to have no ill effects when torn down for inspection after repeated runs for reasonable periods of time at this power level. It makes you think there is a lot of power waiting to be found in all the round engines.

By the way this was the same talk that Skip Holmes made the comment he felt totally safe flying the plane. He said there was so much distance between the nose of the plane and the cockpit that if he saw the nose crash into the ground he'd still have plenty of time and altitude to bail out from the cockpit.

Michele

[440_Magnum]

Re: Upper limit on R-3350 in horsepower.

Dreadnought is awesome even when it's just loafing around above Stead. I love the sound of it just chugging and rumbling away up there!

The cool thing about round engines... even when they're working hard, they don't SOUND like they are :-)

I loved that video that used to be on here somewhere of Tom Dwelle flying Critical Mass during a race. The audio sounded like a tractor weeding a corn field. I'm sure it was deafeningly loud in the cockpit, but the pitch and rhythm of a big radial is deceivingly calm.

[440_Magnum]

Re: Upper limit on R-3350 in horsepower.

Eric

I too have read that article and was quite amazed. Most of the power came with the aid of only ADI if i remember correctly. I wonder why no one has gone this direction yet?

Well, a few things struck me.

One- that was done when R-2800s were NEW, and the parts were lying all over the factory. It was done by a factory engineer, on a wartime budget.

Two- if you read carefully you'll note that the engines in the test cell were boosted by a huge external fan, not by an engine-driven supercharger or turbocharger.

Three- in the test cell, the engine doesn't get any G-loading, no thermal shocks from flying through rain showers or stratified air, etc.


Bottom line- it doesn't make it any less impressive that he pulled down those numbers, but you'd have to factor off a fair bit for a "real world" scenario. But still.... wow.

[Peashooter]

Re: Upper limit on R-3350 in horsepower.

Indeed, 3,800 hp was achieved with lots of water and lots of boost -- up to 150" -- holy jugs, Batman!

The discussion about bearings was very interesting.

I've posted this elsewhere before, but my friend Ltc. Harry Roe, who flew P-47s out of Duxford in WW-II, said that they trained in the bird never to exceed normal takeoff boost, and METO power only when there was trouble on their tail. But when they got in-theater and had to go out of Duxford full of gas, bombs and ammo, they ran 80"+ on takeoff and just barely cleared the berm at the end of the runway! Wartime measures...

[Low-n-Slow]

Re: PW 2800 on putting out 4 or 5 grand!

The attached articles on a PW engineer using water / meth / alco injection to keep motor from melting down.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Sure, i built nitro and meth V8s along time ago

Sure, i washed out lots of cylinders and rings

Sure, i spent big $$$ trying to keep a lube film in the cylinders

AND Sure, i couldnt (and nobody else could either )



So reading this PW article that after a 4 or 5 grand (HP) successful test there "was water / meth mixture dripping / pouring out of the headers".....!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I was not stupid 20 years ago and i aint stupid today..... what the f////
gives.

bm



ps.... the money is all gone, but splaine me

Not sure if I'm understanding what you're askin', Bill, so correct me if I'm headin' down the wrong path, but here goes:

I assume the "nitro and meth" you were running was nitromethane and alcohol as opposed to nitrous oxide. Nitromethane's primary use (despite the thousands of gallons that have run through drag racing engines) is as an industrial cleaner and as you and many others have proved, it is excellent in that capacity at removing oil films (whether we want it too or not )

The water/meth injection used in the tests (and in hi output aircraft engines in general) is methanol and water- no nitromethane involved. The water/alcohol injection serves only one purpose: to cool the intake gasses and prevent detonation. The purpose of the alcohol was to act as antifreeze to keep the mixture from freezing at high altitude (have often wondered if any race teams have ever played with straight water as it's higher latent heat of vapourization would cool better than the water/methanol mix).

The test with ADI mix pouring out the stacks was not one of the high horsepower runs - they just wanted to see how much ADI they could dump in before the engine quit running - quite a bit as it turned out

cheers
Low

[440_Magnum]

Re: PW 2800 on putting out 4 or 5 grand!

The water/meth injection used in the tests (and in hi output aircraft engines in general) is methanol and water- no nitromethane involved. The water/alcohol injection serves only one purpose: to cool the intake gasses and prevent detonation.Low

That was something that finally clicked with me me when I first read that article a few years back. I had always ASSumed that the methanol compoenent of the ADI fluid did, in fact, burn in the combustion chambers. After all, its flammable, right? But the whole incident with isopropyl alcohol finally made it clear that the methanol or ethanol percentage in ADI fluid is below its LEL and it doesn't burn in any significant way, whereas the isopropyl *did* try to burn and drove the total mixture into an over-rich condition.

The purpose of the alcohol was to act as antifreeze to keep the mixture from freezing at high altitude (have often wondered if any race teams have ever played with straight water as it's higher latent heat of vapourization would cool better than the water/methanol mix).
Low

I wondered the same thing. Maybe it is still used just to make sure that nothing ever freezes in any of the ADI plumbing on ferry flights? Maybe mixing two fluids with different boiling points works better than a single fluid, even with a higher latent heat of vaporization?

[Blue Foam]

Re: PW 2800 on putting out 4 or 5 grand!

The attached articles on a PW engineer using water / meth / alco injection to keep motor from melting down.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Sure, i built nitro and meth V8s along time ago

Sure, i washed out lots of cylinders and rings

Sure, i spent big $$$ trying to keep a lube film in the cylinders

AND Sure, i couldnt (and nobody else could either )



So reading this PW article that after a 4 or 5 grand (HP) successful test there "was water / meth mixture dripping / pouring out of the headers".....!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I was not stupid 20 years ago and i aint stupid today..... what the f////
gives.

bm

OK, washing down cylinders is a sure way to destroy the oil film and sieze pistons. The 6000 HP 3350 on a test stand on alcohol didn't have unburned fuel pouring out of the headers and that's the clue.

Fuel atomization is the absolute key here. P--sing liquid into the cylinders leads to uneven fuel to air ratios due to the uncertainty of how much fuel is evaporating on any given intake pulse. Since running lean will cause enough detonation damage to wreck the engine in only a few revolutions (fractions of a second), we would have to run rich. Rich leads to excess fuel not atomized, liquid in the cylinders, loss of oil film, and finally, piston seizure.

Another BIG issue for air racers is the G effect. In level flight, runner mounted injectors to the top and bottom cylinders are only 3 to 4 feet apart, or a differential pressure due to G of about 2 psi. At 4 G, this becomes 8 psi. If the delivery pressure is 50 psi, then the mixture differential is 5% lean on top, 5% rich on the bottom and good on the sides. Run the mixture so that the top cylinders are OK and the resulting 10% over-rich condition on the bottom can wash out the oil film.

Next issue is that a lot of the injection set-ups that I have seen in use have the supercharger impellor distributing the alcohol. So liquid droplets have to go up a 4' high vertical column to get to the runner turn of the upper cylinders. A lot of the fuel won't make the climb, especially when the runners aren't feeding. Where does all the extra fuel go? The lower cylinders! This effect makes the mixture differential top to bottom even worse.

Now for the REALLY bad part. Piston seizure of a large bore, high boost radial due to lean vs. rich-wet operation is not going to look that different when we are holding the failed parts in our hands. Lean induced detonation will sieze rings, which allows blow-by of the high boost, which takes off the oil film. Yes, there are some differences, but troubleshooting a mixture distribution problem Australian style (by failure analysis) is nearly impossible and always expensive.

Making the runner and injection systems so that the fuel is evaporated fully and properly distributed under any G load is the answer. As for boost, everyone here knows about my affinity for turbos. For reference, turbo-alcohol motors at high boost and variable G (lateral) have been in use in Champ car for decades.

[speeddemon]

Re: PW 2800 on putting out 4 or 5 grand!

OK, washing down cylinders is a sure way to destroy the oil film and sieze pistons. The 6000 HP 3350 on a test stand on alcohol didn't have unburned fuel pouring out of the headers and that's the clue.

Fuel atomization is the absolute key here. P--sing liquid into the cylinders leads to uneven fuel to air ratios due to the uncertainty of how much fuel is evaporating on any given intake pulse. Since running lean will cause enough detonation damage to wreck the engine in only a few revolutions (fractions of a second), we would have to run rich. Rich leads to excess fuel not atomized, liquid in the cylinders, loss of oil film, and finally, piston seizure.

Another BIG issue for air racers is the G effect. In level flight, runner mounted injectors to the top and bottom cylinders are only 3 to 4 feet apart, or a differential pressure due to G of about 2 psi. At 4 G, this becomes 8 psi. If the delivery pressure is 50 psi, then the mixture differential is 5% lean on top, 5% rich on the bottom and good on the sides. Run the mixture so that the top cylinders are OK and the resulting 10% over-rich condition on the bottom can wash out the oil film.

Next issue is that a lot of the injection set-ups that I have seen in use have the supercharger impellor distributing the alcohol. So liquid droplets have to go up a 4' high vertical column to get to the runner turn of the upper cylinders. A lot of the fuel won't make the climb, especially when the runners aren't feeding. Where does all the extra fuel go? The lower cylinders! This effect makes the mixture differential top to bottom even worse.

Now for the REALLY bad part. Piston seizure of a large bore, high boost radial due to lean vs. rich-wet operation is not going to look that different when we are holding the failed parts in our hands. Lean induced detonation will sieze rings, which allows blow-by of the high boost, which takes off the oil film. Yes, there are some differences, but troubleshooting a mixture distribution problem Australian style (by failure analysis) is nearly impossible and always expensive.

Making the runner and injection systems so that the fuel is evaporated fully and properly distributed under any G load is the answer. As for boost, everyone here knows about my affinity for turbos. For reference, turbo-alcohol motors at high boost and variable G (lateral) have been in use in Champ car for decades.

Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.....

MORE FUEL! MORE FUEL!! MORE FUEL!!! BURN, BABY, BURN!!!!!!

[Blue Foam]

Re: PW 2800 on putting out 4 or 5 grand!

That was something that finally clicked with me me when I first read that article a few years back. I had always ASSumed that the methanol compoenent of the ADI fluid did, in fact, burn in the combustion chambers. After all, its flammable, right? But the whole incident with isopropyl alcohol finally made it clear that the methanol or ethanol percentage in ADI fluid is below its LEL and it doesn't burn in any significant way, whereas the isopropyl *did* try to burn and drove the total mixture into an over-rich condition.
...Maybe it is still used just to make sure that nothing ever freezes in any of the ADI plumbing on ferry flights? Maybe mixing two fluids with different boiling points works better than a single fluid, even with a higher latent heat of vaporization?

Let's remember that the 6000 HP 3350 ran on pure methanol. Not ADI and not Avgas+ADI. Champ cars run on pure methanol. Many, many classes of dragsters and other racers run on pure methanol. If anyone wants a list, it's a BIG LIST. Sparrow and Slacker both reported here that addition of water-methanol ADI requires "de-riching" to increase power; i.e. they are BURNING the methanol.

An engine running on alcohol and atmosphere has to burn the alcohol. How else does an alcohol engine run?

[Bill Marsh]

Re: Alky powered present and past Reno racers?

If memory serves me..... 5 to 10 yrs ago, a Sea Fury was using a non-av gas for Reno

Any others... pls. elaborate, and pls. state (if possible) reason why the race plane was unsuccessful.

BM

[Bill Marsh]

Re: Alky powered present and past Reno racers?

If memory serves me..... 5 to 10 yrs ago, a Sea Fury was using a non-av gas for Reno

Any others... pls. elaborate, and pls. state (if possible) reason why the race plane was unsuccessful.

BM