I have the taste of Metal in my mouth!!!

[440_Magnum]

Re: I have the taste of Metal in my mouth!!!

Well that's not a pleasant thought.

Jarrod

No.... but it is a thought that pops to mind without being invited. Maybe PM can banish the curse.

[matt]

Re: I have the taste of Metal in my mouth!!!

well, this will year will be the seventh year that the mighty met will have made it to the races (yes i do count 2001). that is as long as the red baron (in her griffon configuration) and miss ashley II combined. i think she has a good long future ahead of her.

[speeddemon]

Re: I have the taste of Metal in my mouth!!!

i think she has a good long future ahead of her.

Is this where the sarcastic part of me says 'a good long future' cruising around in the Silver?

[matt]

Re: I have the taste of Metal in my mouth!!!

no brad, it isn't.

[AAFO_WSagar]

Re: I have the taste of Metal in my mouth!!!

well, this will year will be the seventh year that the mighty met will have made it to the races (yes i do count 2001). that is as long as the red baron (in her griffon configuration) and miss ashley II combined. i think she has a good long future ahead of her.

I'll preface my response with the statement that I am by no stretch of the imagination an "expert" on any of this stuff...
That said... on the subject of Griffons in the Mustang. Other than the apparently inherent danger of the dual prop setup that seems to be the only affordable available prop setup for the current batch of Griffon engines (out of the Shacks) that are readily available, I think we *could* see a lot more very reliable Mustang racers out there if they were powered by the Griff.

Bill Rogers once told me the cost of a "new" pickled Griffon (as run in MAII) and prop cost. It was a mere fraction of the cost of a Merlin made race ready.. even a stock Merlin cost.

Bearing in mind, as raced in MAII, they were not putting out the HP that say a Thorn or Barrow Merlin are known for... based on the experiences that the MAII guys related to me, *apparently* the Griffon is able to absorb a TON more abuse than the much more highly strung Merlin and yet keep running reliably.

I think it was '98 that the MAII Griffon ate the bird and basically killing half the engine in the process.. yet she was able to fly home with, according to BR, Gary only complaining of a slight loss of normal power...

Anyway, to make a long story short... Imagine if the guys racing the Hybred Mustangs could obtain QEC units to convert their birds to run with the Griffon and could actually make an engine last for several races...

At an affordable price....

Might this be another way we could see racers available for a season..

Not trying to rain on anyone's Merlin parade.. I know some would feel racing would never be the same without the sound of a stressed out Merlin on the course..

But... .

Somebody has to come up with a way for these guys to AFFORDABLY race or we're not going to keep even a one race a year season going.

Hopefully, I'm not dragging this off topic... Ron B's PM brings to the table the only Griffon powered airplane at this time (racing) and *could* just lead the way for the rest...

Just idle thoughts here.... not fishing for flames or trying to get anyone's goat..

[Leo]

Re: I have the taste of Metal in my mouth!!!

Why not a Griffon without the CR props? The spitfire did it.
Is there a real practical reason, other than a shortage of props or nosegear?
If the engine is decidedly cheaper, has mucho potential for growth in air racing, it seems to me that something could be worked out. A re-bladed Rotol hub, or something a-la Rare Bear to absorb the power..
I can't see where torgue would be any more of an issue than it is already.
Maybe I'm way offbase.

Leo

[AAFO_WSagar]

Re: I have the taste of Metal in my mouth!!!

Leo... again, I'm pulling from an NON expertise base here, strictly from memory of conversations with BR when he was campaigning MAII

He once said something to the effect that he really wished he could afford a Ham Standard setup for MAII

I think that it's really dooable, it's just the $$$ to make it happen...

[matt]

Re: I have the taste of Metal in my mouth!!!

I'll preface my response with the statement that I am by no stretch of the imagination an "expert" on any of this stuff...
That said... on the subject of Griffons in the Mustang. Other than the apparently inherent danger of the dual prop setup that seems to be the only affordable available prop setup for the current batch of Griffon engines (out of the Shacks) that are readily available, I think we *could* see a lot more very reliable Mustang racers out there if they were powered by the Griff.

Bill Rogers once told me the cost of a "new" pickled Griffon (as run in MAII) and prop cost. It was a mere fraction of the cost of a Merlin made race ready.. even a stock Merlin cost.

Bearing in mind, as raced in MAII, they were not putting out the HP that say a Thorn or Barrow Merlin are known for... based on the experiences that the MAII guys related to me, *apparently* the Griffon is able to absorb a TON more abuse than the much more highly strung Merlin and yet keep running reliably.

I think it was '98 that the MAII Griffon ate the bird and basically killing half the engine in the process.. yet she was able to fly home with, according to BR, Gary only complaining of a slight loss of normal power...

Anyway, to make a long story short... Imagine if the guys racing the Hybred Mustangs could obtain QEC units to convert their birds to run with the Griffon and could actually make an engine last for several races...

At an affordable price....

Might this be another way we could see racers available for a season..

Not trying to rain on anyone's Merlin parade.. I know some would feel racing would never be the same without the sound of a stressed out Merlin on the course..

But... .

Somebody has to come up with a way for these guys to AFFORDABLY race or we're not going to keep even a one race a year season going.

Hopefully, I'm not dragging this off topic... Ron B's PM brings to the table the only Griffon powered airplane at this time (racing) and *could* just lead the way for the rest...

Just idle thoughts here.... not fishing for flames or trying to get anyone's goat..

Why not a Griffon without the CR props? The spitfire did it.
Is there a real practical reason, other than a shortage of props or nosegear?
If the engine is decidedly cheaper, has mucho potential for growth in air racing, it seems to me that something could be worked out. A re-bladed Rotol hub, or something a-la Rare Bear to absorb the power..
I can't see where torgue would be any more of an issue than it is already.
Maybe I'm way offbase.

Leo

good thinking wayne, there have been some interesting thoughts running around the griffon contingent (like any group of race fans has had their own "wouldn't it be cool if..." discussions), nothing that extreme but stuff that would make it even more affordable to fly with a griffon engine.

now let me make one thing clear, these ARE just ideas and nothing really solid has been committed to them. at this point it's not really high on the priority list to start moving with this stuff either. i'm not really on the forefront of said developments so i'll let those who are talk about it if they choose to. don't want to shoot my mouth off *too* much and open a big can of worms to just be totally wrong.

leo, theoretically (mind you i'm not the best on this subject, i am just parroting what i've been told) the contra-prop setup in addition to neutralizing p factor also produces a bit more thrust because you have more blade area without needing a super long blade, which will more quickly reach supersonic speeds and drop off in efficiency.

it's debatable what set up would be better, but until someone ponies up the dough we won't know for sure what setup is really better. both have their advantages and disadvantages...

[Chad Veich]

Re: I have the taste of Metal in my mouth!!!

From discussion on the Flypast board and others it would seem that putting a single prop on a Shack Griffon is a very expensive proposition involving lot of custom made components. It has been done, at least one of the BBMF Spit XIVs is running a Shack motor with a five blader. As for putting on a Ham Standard, do they make anything the right size that turns the "wrong" way?

[440_Magnum]

Re: I have the taste of Metal in my mouth!!!

As for putting on a Ham Standard, do they make anything the right size that turns the "wrong" way?

And would the disadvantage of *any* prop turning the "wrong" way on a race course where all the turns are to the left be too big a factor to overcome? Yes, I know Centaurus Sea Furies have run well in the past, but it seems to me that the 3350 Sea Furies have run better than would be accounted for by horsepower alone.

[jarrodeu]

Re: I have the taste of Metal in my mouth!!!

It has been done, at least one of the BBMF Spit XIVs is running a Shack motor with a five blader.

Is that the one that Planes of Fame owns?

Jarrod

[Chad Veich]

Re: I have the taste of Metal in my mouth!!!

BBMF=Battle of Britain Memorial Flight

The ex-POF Spit is a XIX and, as far as I know, is still running the counter rotaters. (And was awesome to see and hear!)

[Sparrow]

Re: I have the taste of Metal in my mouth!!!

Griffon 57 & 58's are fairly abundant and reasonably inexpensive. The greater factor is the amount of money and effort it takes to convert the Mustang for a griffon. It just ain't a bolt on by ANY stretch of the imagination.

[Wild Bill Kelso]

Re: I have the taste of Metal in my mouth!!!

It just ain't a bolt on by ANY stretch of the imagination.

What about in a single prop configuration? They DID do it to the Spit. And would it be cheaper than building a "new" engine that some of the other dreamers have talked about?

[mdwflyer]

Re: I have the taste of Metal in my mouth!!!

The prop configuration is the easiest part of the conversion. The physical size of the engine/mount/firewall/cowling etc... is the tough part.