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  • #46
    Re: OT but is this photo real?

    Originally posted by MRussell
    When was the last time the military guys here flew a 172? Do you have a good understanding of the limits of outward visibility in such a craft, especially while turning? I've never flown a fighter obviously but I've seen videos from on-board (the one of the F15 guys dogfighting and horsing around comes to mind), and I know those little bubble canopies have pretty excellent visibility (albeit if not from the backseat of a T38). Finally, if a 172 instructor did see your T38, or F15/18 coming at him from the right at a 330-knot closure rate, what exactly would you recommend as his best course of action to avoid a collision? I am NOT being sarcastic, as your thoughts are greatly appreciated.
    Okay, very fair question. Both Hacker and I grew up in a Navion/L-17. It had pretty good visibility for a GA aircraft. I will admit that my -172 time is fairly limited....I think my last one was a 'fam' flight in one with floats. But I know Hacker has quite a bit of high-wing time in them. On a personal level, I have a single, multi-engine, commercial land ticket with an instrument rating. I've had high performance single and multi-engine time. So I know the gamut of visibility and maneuverability. And I'm NOT blaming the GA environment in general.

    I will also admit that prior to my military flying, I had my 'head in the clouds' so to speak. Strictly a VFR, get in and go flying, and not really worried about the world around me, kind of pilot. In the Seattle area, we had the TCA to worry about, and McChord AFB in the vacinity...but for the most part, there was a lot of uncontrolled airspace just to go out and zoom around in, and not have to worry about anyone else being out there. "I" was the kind of pilot that, once I started military training, became scared to death of. "Clueless" is the word that comes to mind. And I don't mean that in a derogatory way. I mean more from the angle that I just didn't know any better.

    To answer your final question? Well, I would hope that the other plane would be in positive control. I think that is the one thing I took away from my military background is that my 'comfort zone' in high traffic areas involves talking to someone who has the bigger picture. That would (hopefully) ensure that we never got close enough for a collision to be an issue. In this case, if the guys were under positive control, and on IFR vectors, then they were flying in controlled airspace. That means that if the -172 was in the same area, they were in controlled airspace too.

    Does that make any sense?

    If you are going to just go around and 'play', find some uncontrolled airspace to do it in, or stay below 1200'. If you want to be up in the 'big kids playground', then you need to be talking to someone.

    And I don't say ANY of this to be inflamatory. I just say it as one who has seen both sides, and in hindsight, is scared to death of 'what I used to be'.

    Comment


    • #47
      Re: OT but is this photo real?

      Let me add a little perspective to that accident.

      First, I was in neither aircraft, hence, the little perspective. However, I was the Transient Alert Crew Chief that launched the T-38. So from an Air Force perspective I was involved. My signature in the 781H, granted me a full debrief with the Wing King. The T-38 was a Laughlin AFB bird (Del Rio, TX). If I remember correctly the accident happened in or very near the South Practice area for GA training, which is just south of Stinson Airport.

      If you depart Randolph headed to Kelly or back to Del Rio, you would fly through this area.

      I remember hearing that the Student occupant in the 172 was from France on his "First" flight, and that they did not just land, nor did they pick the spot. I remember hearing that the only thing that saved them after the collison, was the fact that the battery stayed attached to the firewall and that they had the flaps configured for slow flight. With this the aircraft came down in a falling leaf.

      Just my two cents

      Warren

      Comment


      • #48
        Re: OT but is this photo real?

        Originally posted by Tin Man
        Military pilots have restricted areas, moas, alert areas, high speed transition routes, and a lot more than I can think of right now to learn their skillls. There is no reason to have a T38 @ 330knts mixing it up with GA aircraft at 1/3 the speed. You place the blame where you want.
        YGBSM. He was getting a vector to an ILS! How in any way is that 'mixing it up' with GA aircraft!? In which of those airspaces you list above would you suggest a T-38 pilot practice flying instrument approaches?

        Originally posted by MRussell
        When was the last time the military guys here flew a 172?
        According to my logbook it was 19 October 2002. My last GA flight was on 3 October 2005, but that was in a Cherokee 140, so I guess that doesn't qualify.

        All USAF pilots currently get their FAA Private ASEL at an FBO prior to starting jet training, so everyone in an Air Force fast mover has at least *some* time in general aviation aircraft.

        When was the last time a General Aviation pilot flew down final at 165 knots?

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        • #49
          Re: OT but is this photo real?

          Originally posted by Warren_C
          My signature in the 781H, granted me a full debrief with the Wing King.
          Wow...can't imagine having my name on the Exceptional Release for an aircraft involved in a Class A!!!

          Comment


          • #50
            Re: OT but is this photo real?

            Originally posted by Randy Haskin
            According to my logbook it was 19 October 2002. My last GA flight was on 3 October 2005, but that was in a Cherokee 140, so I guess that doesn't qualify.
            You mean you actually KEEP TRACK of those things? What's a logbook?

            Comment


            • #51
              Re: OT but is this photo real?

              Originally posted by Randy Haskin
              When was the last time a General Aviation pilot flew down final at 165 knots?
              For me, it would be the day after Thanksgiving 2003, in the "stack" at LaGuardia in a Baron.
              _________
              -Matt
              Red Bull has no earthly idea what "air racing" is.

              Comment


              • #52
                Re: OT but is this photo real?

                Originally posted by MRussell
                Finally, if a 172 instructor did see your T38, or F15/18 coming at him from the right at a 330-knot closure rate, what exactly would you recommend as his best course of action to avoid a collision? I am NOT being sarcastic, as your thoughts are greatly appreciated.
                The best thing that General Aviation pilots can do is BE AWARE. Spend time prior to the flight looking at the sectional. Note where MOAs are and where MTRs are. Remember also that jets need to get from their airport to those MOAs, so know where the departure and arrival corridoors are.

                If you don't know where those are, then give the Safety Office at that particular base a call. One of their dedicated jobs is to be a liaison with GA traffic, and they would be more than happy to show you where the high-traffic areas are.

                Every base I've flown at gives yearly briefings (sometimes quarterly) at the GA airports around, showing them what the hazards are and where military flights are most likely to be.

                Here's an example from the Whiteman AFB website:

                Midair collisions are an area of vital concern to everyone who flies an airplane. The actual number of midairs between Air Force aircraft and general aviation aircraft is relatively low; however, 80 percent of reported Air Force near misses occur with general aviation aircraft. Because of increasing general aviation traffic and heavy concentrations of military aircraft involved in training, we want to inform you of the flying activity at Whiteman Air Force Base.

                This Web page is designed to alert you to the many areas of high midair collision potential in the skies over Missouri and to share ways to make them safer. This site will describe the types of military aircraft you may encounter, arrival and departure routes, and military operating areas. It also provides information regarding midair collisions and ways we can all help avoid them.
                If you want to know more, the buzz-word to Google is "MACA", which means "Mid-Air Collision Avoidance".

                I'm not saying that GA aircraft should stay away from the high-traffic areas...we all share the skies. But it will significantly increase your awareness if you know where the potential collisions might occur.

                Comment


                • #53
                  Re: OT but is this photo real?

                  Originally posted by MRussell
                  For me, it would be the day after Thanksgiving 2003, in the "stack" at LaGuardia in a Baron.

                  THERE'S your problem. You were probably delaying a Piedmont 737 from making its gateway time.

                  AIRLINE PILOTS. Now THERE is where we need to be pointing our fingers (ducking and running.......)

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Re: OT but is this photo real?

                    I would have to agree with Randy on all this.
                    The area I used to soar in was close enough to Travis AFB to have C-5's constantly "blasting thru" on their various approach routes. We were not under any control by Travis, but many of us kept ourselves informed of the location of their aircraft simply by listening in. Even a big aircraft like that can be difficult to see and avoid under a lot of conditions, and even getting near one of their wakes could be disastrous.
                    To me it breaks down to situational awareness, the Cessna may not know the T-38 is in the area, but knowing that those operations are being performed in the area should be enough to keep the head out and swivelling, or move it to a clearer area.
                    Just my .02

                    If I remember, the 106 accident occured during a practice intercept on the civilian plane, something long ago banned.

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Re: OT but is this photo real?

                      could the photo of the folded winged jet at the beginning of this thread, have been taken from a carrier deck and is a f4 being craned onto or off the deck? hubert

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Re: OT but is this photo real?

                        Originally posted by speeddemon
                        THERE'S your problem. You were probably delaying a Piedmont 737 from making its gateway time.

                        AIRLINE PILOTS. Now THERE is where we need to be pointing our fingers (ducking and running.......)
                        Wow that was daring of you on this board!!

                        Anyways nope, traffic was so heavy that day, ATC had us all assigned to a 160-knot approach speed. In flying the arrival they sandwiched us between an MD80 and a 737, and we were so self-conscious about our speed that we were creeping up on the MD80 in the long final. This wasn't your average Baron, but rather had 300bhp/side, so 160-170 on final wasn't a problem.
                        _________
                        -Matt
                        Red Bull has no earthly idea what "air racing" is.

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Re: OT but is this photo real?

                          Originally posted by MRussell
                          Wow that was daring of you on this board!!

                          Anyways nope, traffic was so heavy that day, ATC had us all assigned to a 160-knot approach speed. In flying the arrival they sandwiched us between an MD80 and a 737, and we were so self-conscious about our speed that we were creeping up on the MD80 in the long final. This wasn't your average Baron, but rather had 300bhp/side, so 160-170 on final wasn't a problem.
                          Well, Hacker and I were debating this off-site....what is the flap and gear speed on a Baron? Must have had to hold off until short final, or something, eh?

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Re: OT but is this photo real?

                            Originally posted by speeddemon
                            Well, Hacker and I were debating this off-site....what is the flap and gear speed on a Baron? Must have had to hold off until short final, or something, eh?
                            Pretty much, yeah.
                            _________
                            -Matt
                            Red Bull has no earthly idea what "air racing" is.

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Re: OT but is this photo real?

                              Baron's can dump the gear up to 174 kts and will slow to flap speed quickly enough after that.

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