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  • #91
    Re: When did it happen?

    Hey Wayne, is that "People Passion Pistons and Power" available for download or sale?

    Jarrod

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    • #92
      Re: When did it happen?

      Originally posted by Race 29
      Wayne,
      I've seen the trailor, and that's the kind of exciting stuff we need to grab people. If that commercial was ran a couple times during a NASCAR telecast, we'd get some serious interest. We also need to bill the racers, not as 50 year old technology, but as one off exotic racers. Splash it across the screen that it's the worlds fastest motorsport. The editing on that trailor grabbed the excitement of the sport IMHO!! If the American public sees something like that, they'll want more.

      Race 29
      Larry, Jeff Lee is a MASTER at capturing the drama of Air Racing and he did a fantastic job with this show! The Sunday Gold section that starts right after a commercial break would bring chills to me every time I've seen it..

      Quick answer on the advertising part... and why it didn't happen.. lack of $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

      I'm not sure how this stuff works today but at that time, if you could not sell a network on the idea of the show, I mean, THEY pay for its production and airing and pay the production company to do it.. then the production company buys the air time, sells the adverts and tries to recoup their costs that way...

      Some of the stuff I see on Discovery and the like today makes me scratch my head, asking myself.. why couldn't the "World of Wings" format sell????

      The regular weekly episodes were to be on the format of a host and then stories done by crew/crews at various aviation related events/hangars... with race teams in the background.. CAF hangars... museums.. etc, etc, etc....

      I can think of a lot of ways I'd rather not spend 26 weeks of my life other than chasing around at all sorts of interesting aviation related places!!! *sniff*

      As I said... alas.. it didn't sell..



      I'm still here, the site's still here..



      Unfortunately, the pickins on TV as far as classic aviation as it is today are somewhat lacking...

      Wayne Sagar
      "Pusher of Electrons"

      Comment


      • #93
        Re: When did it happen?

        Originally posted by jarrodeu
        Hey Wayne, is that "People Passion Pistons and Power" available for download or sale?

        Jarrod
        Quick answer, NO... At that time, RARA had a contract with Skyfire and all taped sales were locked down by them.. the deal with "WoW" was for airing only....

        Further distro would be and is not legally possible...

        I don't think I could even copy and give you a tape legally..

        Wayne
        Wayne Sagar
        "Pusher of Electrons"

        Comment


        • #94
          Re: When did it happen?

          Originally posted by Dash
          What do I suggest? Develop a new engine. What if a team that could afford to field a team like Rare Bear or Dago with all their loyal and brilliant minds that volunteer were to decide to not build or buy a racer. Instead the volunteers would come from the likes of engineers and they would develop a new engine. Now as has been stated time and time again the R&D would take millions and take 10 years to thoroughly test. I think that we could get an engine up to the reliability and surpass it as the race Merlins, Wrights, and P&W's. Let's get real here too, millions of dollars has been stated here as impossible. I know several individuals who could pay for it themselves. Now the argument of why would they? Why do people fly WWII airplanes past the breaking point at 30 feet off the ground and at up to 500+ mph and loose money doing it? Because they love it..
          Dash, appreciate your suggestion but... we need something that can be implimented TODAY and with dollars in hand.

          I'm still waiting for a realistic solution that could be implimented by say, the beginning of year that would make it not only dooable but agreeable and provide incentive to the teams/owners/pilots to actually do it and get to the new venues in large numbers...

          Wayne Sagar
          "Pusher of Electrons"

          Comment


          • #95
            Re: When did it happen?

            Why don"t you ask the people that do the racing for some "input" after all they might have an idea or two since they are the ones doing it.

            Comment


            • #96
              Re: When did it happen?

              Originally posted by Sparrow
              Installing these systems and all of the wiring and related components in the airplane could be a challenge in itself. I bet Mike Luvara could testify to that in regards to getting the telemetry system working properly on some of these racers. I wonder if anyone would install a full electronic dual ignition system on a racing Merlin, get it fairly well proven and reliable and then take it to Reno for the week.
              Nothing in air racing is easy and I can certainly tell you that there are unique challenges in putting a telemetry system in an air racer. To think what Sandberg and others have tried and were sucessful with many years ago is certainly a testament to dedication and their hard work.

              Like has been said, the market is not there for R&D of brand new components for unlimited air racers. It's more than a losing proposition for most.

              If I can help those prevent damage or an engine failure through the use of telemetry, then I'm happy to have helped.

              Michael

              Comment


              • #97
                Re: When did it happen?

                Originally posted by Mluvara
                Like has been said, the market is not there for R&D of brand new components for unlimited air racers. It's more than a losing proposition for most Michael
                I'm not sure it would just be air racers that would benefit. Warbirds and the other engine users, are still breaking parts, and supply of spares is limited.
                Would updating the engines with new materials, electronics, and a few other inovations, REALLY be that expensive, spread out among all the potential users, restorations, etc.

                Paul

                Comment


                • #98
                  Re: When did it happen?

                  [Now, back to my original post.. is "restricter plate" racing such a bad thing?????

                  Yes Wayne!

                  Restrictor plate racing sucks. The days when REAL racing meant you could run just about any modification without some artificial constriction of your horsepower were the real racing age. Race what you brung not what somebody says you have to because you're faster than everybody else. That's what UNLIMITED means.

                  When you've developed that power why should anybody have the right to slow you down?

                  Answer: they should'nt be able to!

                  Bill Kohler

                  Comment


                  • #99
                    Re: When did it happen?

                    Originally posted by 440_Magnum
                    Once again, this is an outsider/railbird talking, but since we're all stating our opinions here goes:

                    The problem I see is that every "formula" racing class degenerates eventually and then re-emerges with a new set of problems under the new rules, and the formula never saves money as someone else pointed out. I know its almost apples and oranges, but look at NAStyCAR- the teams have ENTIRE engine shops and ENTIRE R&D programs just to develop restrictor plate engines that produce half the power of their "regular" engines, and do so for only 4 races per year. Thats right- they spend about as much on engine R&D for 4 races as they do for the other 32! Slap a horsepower limit on the unlimiteds, and (IMO) you'd kill the class. It might re-emerge in a different form, but I'll bet you a deluxe burger that it wouldn't re-emerge any cheaper. Unlimited air racing is a high-dollar sport, and as long as there are people a) WITH the bucks, and b) with the INTEREST to run, they'll throw whatever money it takes at the sport to win. Throwing a huge wrench into the rules will just hurt a lot of people who are already in the sport and have, over 5, 10, or 40 years laid down their approach to winning races (Tiger, Shelton, Brown, Button, Hisey, etc. and their technical guys like Sparrow, Kerch, and Shanholtzer). Those guys would find themselves with an inventory of "illegal" engines and parts that suddenly have no value to anyone, and airplanes that have been highly developed with a lot of $$ over the years, but would not be competitive under the new rules, forcing them to spend MORE money to be competitive again.

                    I like the way the Sport class is growing, and it may be the future of highly popular air racing. But why start screwing around with the unlimiteds anyway? If their time comes to quit running, then it comes. Life goes on, and maybe an "unlimited sport" class emerges to take its place. But I'll wager it won't "quit" for a good while yet. My hunch would be to let it evolve (or devolve) as the market and the aircraft owners dictate, rather than legislate change from the outside.

                    <editing for one more point that occurred to me>

                    I guess the real problem I see with controlling the unlimited class to "make the racing better" is that it presumes that fans and spectators are the priority, and my impression is that is not really the case for racers who want to run unlimited. Its about going fast and beating the other guys, and if it was JUST the pilots and crews and engine builders alone in the desert doing their thing, they'd probably still do it. If the win comes by being such a threat that the other guy breaks trying to qualify, its still a win and its still part of the overall game- the racing doesn't have to be "neck and neck down to the wire," races are legitamately won and lost in the pits and in the engine shops too.
                    AMEN, brother!

                    Comment


                    • Re: When did it happen?

                      Originally posted by AAFO_WSagar
                      I think you guys are all missing my point.

                      Here's the current situation, as I'm understanding you guys see it. We've had one race per year for "forever" and as hard as it is to get an airplane ready and as much money as it costs, even though the top teams can only expect, at best, to break maybe close to even. In most cases, it's way upside down from that.

                      Ok.. with one race a year, we can probably keep getting a field at that race as things stand. Not enough prize/sponsor money to make participation pay for itself.. the "rich guys" have the bux to spend and they'll keep spending it as long as there's a place to play with their toys.. and we fans are all happy with this. We don't want anything happening to keep the racers from pulling out all the stops, blow up or win, that's what we come to see.. period!

                      Am I close to understanding what you guys are basically saying?

                      Well, here's how I'm seeing it. We now have the potential of having a series of races that could culminate in the National Championships actually being National Championships, held at Reno, in September, as long as there is a venue there for it to be held there...

                      Ok... given that there is not enough prize money, or sponsor money at the present time to make one race a break even proposition, it's also obvious that there is not enough prize/sponsor money, currently, to make a series a break even or better, a make a buck proposition for the racers..

                      Within this thread, we've discussed the difficulty of preparing a team for a single race, how hard it is to keep the engines alive, and not knocking ANY engine builder, particularly, the Merlin powered racers.

                      Further, I've been told by really reliable inside people that even at its best, after a week at Reno, the BEST prepared Merlin running in the 100+ MP range, if it holds together, is now really tired and needs a rebuild, at best, a rebuild and this will come in at somewhere over 100 grand.. this is a BEST CASE scenario..

                      OK.. Reno pays something like 150 grand for first place, something like 50 g's for second..

                      If it takes pushing the Merlin to near breaking to get the top two prizes, there isn't a rat's chance in a cat house that anyone's going to break even at the top...

                      So, now, how are we going to even THINK about getting these Merlin guys to come out and play in Tucson, Tunica, Las Vegas... WHEREVER.??..

                      We can grab for a pie in the sky and say.. "We'll get the sponsors".. "We'll all go and pay the gate"...

                      Trust me, as of today, it's not going to happen that way!

                      So, what do we do?

                      If I'm understanding you guys correctly, you're saying you'd rather we only have one race, and we don't care how financially difficult it is for the participants, they're rich enough and will keep coming no matter what. We don't care about a series, it's too hard to go to more than one anyway???

                      Is this what you guys are saying?

                      What I'm proposing is not to run at 390 in a bunch.. we certainly would not have to slow the field by that much to make engines last a season or more...

                      Maybe after a few years of heavy participation and attendance growth with much more sponsorship coming in, we'd see prizes grow to the point that a serious racing effort could be mounted by certain teams to actually follow a circuit with several engines in the bank and actually pull out the stops race after race..

                      We sure as hell don't have the luxury of doing this now..

                      So, again, you guys reject my power conservation suggestion to help grow the sport and make it a reasonable proposition for a team to consider making it to two, three or more races a year and maybe break even or better...

                      Somebody lay down a better solution on the table that is realistic and I'll shut up and quit talking about reducing power...

                      So far, I've not seen a realistic solution counter to mine.

                      Ball's in you guys court..

                      I don't know about everybody else but I save up so I can go to this ONE race each year. This is my only vacation. I can't afford to follow 2 or 3 races and probably could not get the time off or pay for the longer trips either.
                      I suspect there are quite a few fans out there that are in the same boat. So that raises the question: are there enough fans that could support a series of races?

                      Comment


                      • Re: When did it happen?

                        Originally posted by matt
                        mike, part of that problem is that the races are almost all sea furies anyway, atleast half of the competition at reno is sea furies. don't get me wrong they're loads of fun to watch but i do like my mustangs and bearcats and the occasional other 'cat'.

                        the only real answer i can think of is to get rid of the parker rule, find some body to fund the custom projects and let them battle it out with the warbirds, however as was previously discussed here on this thread that's not gonna happen time soon. so, as i see at this point unlimiteds are pretty doomed within the next 15 years or so as engines continue to run out and any remaining *racers* turned back to stock or put into museums.
                        What's the Parker rule?

                        Comment


                        • Re: When did it happen?

                          Originally posted by matt
                          mike, part of that problem is that the races are almost all sea furies anyway, atleast half of the competition at reno is sea furies. don't get me wrong they're loads of fun to watch but i do like my mustangs and bearcats and the occasional other 'cat'.

                          the only real answer i can think of is to get rid of the parker rule, find some body to fund the custom projects and let them battle it out with the warbirds, however as was previously discussed here on this thread that's not gonna happen time soon. so, as i see at this point unlimiteds are pretty doomed within the next 15 years or so as engines continue to run out and any remaining *racers* turned back to stock or put into museums.
                          What's the Parker rule?

                          Comment


                          • Re: When did it happen?

                            Originally posted by Race 29
                            Wayne,
                            NO WAY am I talking about your stuff!!! I'm talking about the national media coverage. Ya know, the two ESPN guys who would put their hands on the leading edge of a wing, look into the camera, and say "This is an airplane". Come on!!! I've never seen a NASCAR race where the announcer would even dare to say "This is a car". That's the type of thing I'm talking about. Believe me, you've done great with AAFO, I think the networks need someone like you to be running the show!!

                            Every few years this subject comes up (if not EVERY year). But it really seems as though we run into a big fat brick wall as far as RARA goes. I don't know if it's Mike Houghton (spelling?) or someone else in the organization, but it really does look like they don't want the sport to grow, or at least have too much media coverage. It would be so easy to bill the races as NASCAR to the 10th power. More noise, more speed, more entertainment, more BEER!!! We'd see more and more fans like the ones FNG saw. The question SHOULD be, what can we (as fans) do about RARA. That's the first hurdle to forming a true National governing body. Nothing more will happen in air racing without media coverage!!

                            Race 29
                            (Publicly professing my plutonic love of Wayne Sagar!)
                            As fans each and EVERY one of us needs to prevail upon RARA to get their heads out of their back sides!!

                            Comment


                            • Re: When did it happen?

                              Originally posted by Juke
                              It is still evolving at the AIR RACE DESIGNER SECTION.

                              I am trying to optimize the size..and sorta balance it before I make any bigger model of it.

                              One of my ideas was to use a big two blader prop on it. Then someone in Finland said Harzell says a fourblader is always better than two. Late Spits had 5 bladers...i tought it is because they run outa gear lenght and wanted to maximize the effect of the more powerful engine.

                              Which is better..more blades and less size with blades or bigger blades and less of them ? Does it have to do with forces needed to control the plane in the air.

                              Regarding Eric Alstroms topic: I think no one is against new technology.
                              XB-42 Mixmaster was a 1942 design with a pusher props. It was able to carry payload faster and furher than any other equivalent aeroplane at the time. It had two conventional inlines back then in it. I guess it was overrunned by the jet age, the way of the future....the way of the future.

                              For a limited budget I think a rethinked TSUNAMI -concept might save the effort to make a new record...doubtlessly a Dart-type plane could easily override it.

                              There were some obstacless when I was thinking about it ( dart type aerodyne ). Matt cleverly introduced normal tailgear system on it. Tricycle would also need pretty high struts...also the shaft system is possible doable at low costs, but increases the weight of the tail fuse compared to a tractor layout.

                              All those obstacles can be conquered certainly by a good designing and planning....and cleaner aerodynamics at the transonic region will then pay back.

                              Germans had a first pusher Goeppingen ( 9 or 11 ? ) that had those elements that Mixmaster also had.

                              Remember in the early days..the props were in front or at behind...just like the wings and canards and tail feathers were too.


                              I hope this cleared some air ?


                              rgds,

                              Juke
                              Juke, remember the Miller Special F1? (237-242 mph?) Only recently did it become non competitive, and with a now wing who knows?

                              Comment


                              • Re: When did it happen?

                                Originally posted by 440_Magnum
                                Well, Eric, I'm still something of a "detractor." At least when it comes to the fairly narrow subject of unlimited air racing. To me, the unlimited class IS about warbirds. Logical? No, its a sport and sports have never been logical. If sports were logical, I wouldn't have seen shattered wooden bats as my Astros got disappointed again last night, and we wouldn't still have carburetors on 358 V8s and weight rules for ~3500 lbs. in NASCAR or grass courts in Tennis. But those anacrhonisms are part of what makes those sports *fun* and interesting, its what makes it a challenge to hit a home run in the World Series or find the engine and chassis setup that lets you win a race at an odd racecourse like Pocono in an ornery, uncomfortable, and hard-to-drive pseudo- "stock" car.

                                Now, we all know that the warbird racing can't literally go on forever and something will have to step up and draw its own interest and following, and a lot of us may pick up that new interest. Some may not. Whatever comes along next has got to have its own draw, its own appeal for bench-racing among fans, and its own technological challenges, and we're seeing that start to happen more and more in the Sport class.

                                But here's to hoping that the warbirds keep on for a long time to come- at least until I'm too old to care.... No matter what people come up with to replace Merlins, Wrights, and Pratts, they won't ever quite sound and smell and rattle your rib cage like Merlins, Wrights, and Pratts and that part of the appeal simply cannot be recaptured in any other way. I say lets ENJOY it while we can, and appreciate the talented guys like Sparrow who do what they do against ever increasing challenges. I don't worry about "breaking the last Merlin," because there are plenty of people dedicated to keeping stock Mustangs stock and they'll succeed. And when someone does break the last Merlin available for racing, well, what of it? Would you rather have had it just sit corroding on a shelf or hang dead in a museum? Not me. I think if the engine could talk, it would say "let me go out FAST..."
                                440 Magnum; I started going to Reno because I had read about the Thompson Trophy Races before the warbirds moved in. The Gee Bee Z and Laird Turner Special are still my favorite all time racers. As has been mentioned before, new custom built unlimiteds are probably the future of unlimited air racing. I absolutely loved Perestroika because it was so much smaller, had a tiny crew, and LOOKED evey inch an air racer. Sandy Sanders said so himself. So it was a highly modified Yak and not homebuilt, at least it wasn't a huge expensive monster. Conquest One did 483 with just an R2800 in it. How much could a little Yak do with the same motor? We still don't know. They don't have to be huge(for me) but they do need lots of power and speed.

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