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  • #61
    Re: When did it happen?

    Originally posted by AAFO_WSagar
    Ummn... they already have a 4500lb weight limit.. so, what would just not having any Unlimited racing make the Division???

    Extinct?

    Choice:

    Extinct:
    Oxymoron:
    Forumla Unlimited:

    Which do you choose??

    Do YOU have the bux to make it work totally Unlimited??

    Wayne
    I don't have the bux to do anything but sit in my box seat and watch the races. I come to watch them go as fast as the owners are willing to push them. I'm sure I would have more fun watching the Bear lead the parade at 490+ than having 6 planes bunched up at 390. But that's just me. The Bear growl is what I'm there for.

    When Strega is back up healthy and/or Dago makes a comeback then it's even more fun... 3 airplanes at 490+. The Bear still growls although the 3 blader made the hair on the back of my neck stand up.

    Don

    Comment


    • #62
      Re: When did it happen?

      Originally posted by hattend
      I don't have the bux to do anything but sit in my box seat and watch the races. I come to watch them go as fast as the owners are willing to push them. I'm sure I would have more fun watching the Bear lead the parade at 490+ than having 6 planes bunched up at 390. But that's just me. The Bear growl is what I'm there for.

      When Strega is back up healthy and/or Dago makes a comeback then it's even more fun... 3 airplanes at 490+. The Bear still growls although the 3 blader made the hair on the back of my neck stand up.

      Don
      I think you guys are all missing my point.

      Here's the current situation, as I'm understanding you guys see it. We've had one race per year for "forever" and as hard as it is to get an airplane ready and as much money as it costs, even though the top teams can only expect, at best, to break maybe close to even. In most cases, it's way upside down from that.

      Ok.. with one race a year, we can probably keep getting a field at that race as things stand. Not enough prize/sponsor money to make participation pay for itself.. the "rich guys" have the bux to spend and they'll keep spending it as long as there's a place to play with their toys.. and we fans are all happy with this. We don't want anything happening to keep the racers from pulling out all the stops, blow up or win, that's what we come to see.. period!

      Am I close to understanding what you guys are basically saying?

      Well, here's how I'm seeing it. We now have the potential of having a series of races that could culminate in the National Championships actually being National Championships, held at Reno, in September, as long as there is a venue there for it to be held there...

      Ok... given that there is not enough prize money, or sponsor money at the present time to make one race a break even proposition, it's also obvious that there is not enough prize/sponsor money, currently, to make a series a break even or better, a make a buck proposition for the racers..

      Within this thread, we've discussed the difficulty of preparing a team for a single race, how hard it is to keep the engines alive, and not knocking ANY engine builder, particularly, the Merlin powered racers.

      Further, I've been told by really reliable inside people that even at its best, after a week at Reno, the BEST prepared Merlin running in the 100+ MP range, if it holds together, is now really tired and needs a rebuild, at best, a rebuild and this will come in at somewhere over 100 grand.. this is a BEST CASE scenario..

      OK.. Reno pays something like 150 grand for first place, something like 50 g's for second..

      If it takes pushing the Merlin to near breaking to get the top two prizes, there isn't a rat's chance in a cat house that anyone's going to break even at the top...

      So, now, how are we going to even THINK about getting these Merlin guys to come out and play in Tucson, Tunica, Las Vegas... WHEREVER.??..

      We can grab for a pie in the sky and say.. "We'll get the sponsors".. "We'll all go and pay the gate"...

      Trust me, as of today, it's not going to happen that way!

      So, what do we do?

      If I'm understanding you guys correctly, you're saying you'd rather we only have one race, and we don't care how financially difficult it is for the participants, they're rich enough and will keep coming no matter what. We don't care about a series, it's too hard to go to more than one anyway???

      Is this what you guys are saying?

      What I'm proposing is not to run at 390 in a bunch.. we certainly would not have to slow the field by that much to make engines last a season or more...

      Maybe after a few years of heavy participation and attendance growth with much more sponsorship coming in, we'd see prizes grow to the point that a serious racing effort could be mounted by certain teams to actually follow a circuit with several engines in the bank and actually pull out the stops race after race..

      We sure as hell don't have the luxury of doing this now..

      So, again, you guys reject my power conservation suggestion to help grow the sport and make it a reasonable proposition for a team to consider making it to two, three or more races a year and maybe break even or better...

      Somebody lay down a better solution on the table that is realistic and I'll shut up and quit talking about reducing power...

      So far, I've not seen a realistic solution counter to mine.

      Ball's in you guys court..

      Wayne Sagar
      "Pusher of Electrons"

      Comment


      • #63
        Re: When did it happen?

        I went to the Indy 500 15 years in a row. My buddies and I stopped when the IRL stepped in and legislated very little development. That was 1996. It's been almost 10 years for them to regain lost attention and even now the qualifying crowds are sparse to non-existent when they used to draw 1-200K. Artificial limits on an "unlimited", developmental environment, just to make it "affrodable" to more teams, almost killed Indy. It's been surviving on tradition. Now with CART drivers coming back, it may get better.

        In my book, the only limit on unlimiteds should be pistons & props -- all else is open for development.

        As for the development of new tech applied to old warbirds and how we got here, it's about evolving to stay out front. Look what Dago forced Bear into -- and how Sept Fury responded to the speed challenge. Warbirds won't last forever, but we've got many years before they belch their smokey swan song. My .02, Peas
        Rutan Long EZ, N-LONG
        World Speed Record Holder

        Comment


        • #64
          Re: When did it happen?

          Originally posted by Peashooter
          I went to the Indy 500 15 years in a row. My buddies and I stopped when the IRL stepped in and legislated very little development. That was 1996. It's been almost 10 years for them to regain lost attention and even now the qualifying crowds are sparse to non-existent when they used to draw 1-200K. Artificial limits on an "unlimited", developmental environment, just to make it "affrodable" to more teams, almost killed Indy. It's been surviving on tradition. Now with CART drivers coming back, it may get better.

          In my book, the only limit on unlimiteds should be pistons & props -- all else is open for development.

          As for the development of new tech applied to old warbirds and how we got here, it's about evolving to stay out front. Look what Dago forced Bear into -- and how Sept Fury responded to the speed challenge. Warbirds won't last forever, but we've got many years before they belch their smokey swan song. My .02, Peas
          I totally Agree!
          Very well said!
          Jarrod

          Comment


          • #65
            Re: When did it happen?

            Well I am not smart enough to come up with a solution, but I know what I don't want to see, and that is restricted unlimiteds. Many NASCAR drivers won't say a thing because they are afraid of Big Brother, but almost to a man, they HATE the plate races.

            Comment


            • #66
              Re: When did it happen?

              Question?

              Why should Reno be considered the "Ultimate race of the year?" Just because it has been the longest running? I have never been to Reno,but reading the posts, it sounds like Reno is not a "people, racer, vendor, firendly" atmosphere. If another race event (not to mention any names) can offer a better race atmosphere (and more purse money), the racers may go there instead. Of course now that Reno is not the only game in town, maybe their atitude will have to change if they want to stay in the airracing business.

              Just my ramblings and does not necessarily reflect ant opion but my own.

              Kenn
              May all your bent wings be F2G Corsairs!

              Comment


              • #67
                Re: When did it happen?

                Originally posted by AAFO_WSagar
                I think you guys are all missing my point.

                ...So, now, how are we going to even THINK about getting these Merlin guys to come out and play in Tucson, Tunica, Las Vegas... WHEREVER.??..

                We can grab for a pie in the sky and say.. "We'll get the sponsors".. "We'll all go and pay the gate"...

                Trust me, as of today, it's not going to happen that way!

                So, what do we do?

                ...Somebody lay down a better solution on the table that is realistic and I'll shut up and quit talking about reducing power...

                So far, I've not seen a realistic solution counter to mine.

                Ball's in you guys court..

                Yours is a viable solution. Probably one of the few I have seen. But we all need to take a step back here for a moment.

                This is the same basic set of issues that has been going on since day 1. Airplanes, motors, props, all cost way more than anyone can make in a single race. Sponsorship is lacking bacause there is only one venue. More venues means more opportunity to spend money versus make money. People have been talking about more then one venue forever, and have tried on several occasions to make it happen. But it always ends up the same way. 1 race per year.

                Is that pretty much the case? It is as I see it. It always has been.

                The problem here is somewhat being solved, but it isn't for us. Sport class, F1, and biplanes all could do what we want. Make an affordable, regenerable class of racing that could attract sponsors. But we don't get wood over biplanes. Some are starting to embrace the Sports, but not nearly enough. Legendary names like Greenemeyer and Parker help to attract the fans. We need more like them.

                We, "the die hard", "stand in the cold", "mortgage the house to be at Reno", "sell the kids into slavery for the opportunity to go see our sport" fans do not embrace the classes of racing that could make a multi-venue sport out of racing. We seem to only want heavy metal. Air Classics only reports on the unlimiteds. Not much else is ever talked about. These boards rarely go off the unlimited subject. How many great racers have gone back to the shop to become TF's? How often do we cringe when a legacy racer goes up for sale? What do we all do? We pray it stays a racer, and hope the buyer has more sentiment than sensibility.

                Sorry to say, but Red Bull has the right idea. I hate to think someone could come in and tell us...the 30+ year, been there, done that crowd how to make a race. But they ARE doing it. They have embraced the easily built, low cost, replacable, non-warbirds. They have put the flash and the hype into it, and made it happen. All while we cling to our WWII heritage instead of moving forward and accepting those classes that have the multi-venue potential.

                One other real important thing: The RENO AIR RACE ASSOCIATION is concerned with one thing. The RENO race. Back when it was the PRPA, we had Mojave and Reno. When it was the USARA, we tried to have more unlimited venues (Hamilton, Sherman...). At some point you have to realize that the RENO race association is geared for only one thing. Everyone who has their photo in the program that no one ever seems to know, all live in Reno or close. They work all year toward one thing. September in RENO. Anything else just seems to take away from September in Reno.

                The original question in this thread was, "When did it happen"? I believe it was when Red Bull took, what was basically "our sport", and started proving that someone could actually make money at it, and do all those things people only talked about for the last 30 years.
                Glenn Bloom
                www.helicopterpage.com

                Comment


                • #68
                  Re: When did it happen?

                  Originally posted by speeddemon
                  Hey, I'm not THAT far behind YOU, oh great one.....

                  :-)
                  You CAN'T be talking about me???????
                  Never mind. Maybe next year

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Re: When did it happen?

                    Glenn: I'll bet ya a Fosters that the Red Bull Air Rces won't last 30 years -- or 40, as is the case with Reno. (I'll pay off, I promise!) Last year, the first one through the course was entertaining, but after that -- zzzzzzz. There's no head-to-head competition. They seem to do well with non-aviation/airshow fans where the spectacle is the draw. Big screens notwithstanding. (Big screens at a Stones concert just means that you didn't spring for the good seats down front -- or behind the stick.)

                    What if we put a size limit on NFL linemen? Girl's field hockey, anyone? What if Kennedy and Kruchev didn't reach for the stars? (Did Monroe fall for the Freudian symbolism of Saturn 5 models?) What if they put a field limit on the Hubble telescope? We naturally yearn for the limitless and the unknown, in spite of the costs.

                    NASCAR succeeds with restricter plates becasue some drivers and officials wanted them to stay out of the walls, and they aren't open when racers, so it's turned into a popular, expensive form of roller-derby, where they supposedly drive a car "just like mine." If you touch another car in an open-wheel racer, it's game over and likey over the fence!

                    There is room for coexistence, but when Shock Wave finally makes the Unlimited field, don't even think about an artificial boost limit on that 4360!

                    If you want limits, watch T-6 or Jet races, i.e., one-design racing -- which. as Al G. and Mary D. proved this year, can be extremely competitive. Two-bits worth, Peas
                    Rutan Long EZ, N-LONG
                    World Speed Record Holder

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Re: When did it happen?

                      Originally posted by Peashooter
                      Glenn: I'll bet ya a Fosters that the Red Bull Air Rces won't last 30 years -- or 40, as is the case with Reno. (I'll pay off, I promise!) Last year, the first one through the course was entertaining, but after that -- zzzzzzz.

                      I do not know if they are in it for the long haul, but they are off to a pretty good start. I have to admit, when I saw it on their web site the first time, I was impressed. It is not 500 MPH and it is not unlimited noise, power or heritage, but it is exciting. At least to me it was.

                      If I am here in 30 or 40 years, I will probably be buying you a Fosters. Hell...I will buy you one when I see you next. I am hoping to be at Tuscon and Tunica. I talked to Mr. Landers about volunteering already.
                      Glenn Bloom
                      www.helicopterpage.com

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Re: When did it happen?

                        Originally posted by Peashooter
                        If you want limits, watch T-6 or Jet races, i.e., one-design racing -- which. as Al G. and Mary D. proved this year, can be extremely competitive. Two-bits worth, Peas
                        Peas... nobody says they want HP/CI/Boost limits but.. .given what you say.. .

                        What is YOUR solution to growth into more venues?

                        It's too easy to sit there and say "MO' POWA" and not have a solution to the present situation.

                        This is real, it's here... Growth in the sport is happening. Do the Unlimiteds get on board and make it happen with them there in a BIG way as the stars of the show or..

                        Is this the opening act of the next phase in Air Racing... one where the big guys take the back seat?

                        I'm not tryin to start a fight, let's get that up front but....

                        Seriously Peas.. You've made your OPINION really clear...

                        That's the easy part....

                        so... what's your SOLUTION....

                        Wayne Sagar
                        "Pusher of Electrons"

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Re: When did it happen?

                          Peashooter's on the mark. If you want to kill air racing, start monkeying with the Unlimiteds. They will always be expensive, there will always be too much attrition, but they are what we want to see.

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Re: When did it happen?

                            Originally posted by AAFO_WSagar
                            Robert, how do you figure? For the sake of argument, how can it cost more to run restricted power for a multi race season than it would if you were shelling out 150 grand plus each race, just for a new motor???
                            I can answer this because this is my family race back ground. Running a restrictor plate or say a boost pop-off valve gets more expensive because of what Robert said before someone will throw down the extra coin to "find" extra HP. You loose it in boost or at the carb... You find it in fuel, prop, aerodynamics, weight(rules permitting), where/what ever you can. That's how my father has done so well in racing motorcycles. He was that tuner that would find those grey areas and work with them, and make the restrictions work for him. Same as the NASCAR guys have done. Those kind of people cost money... yes even more than a top notch aircraft engine build.

                            Restricted is a good idea for some racing, but not air racing. Right now what it needs is money. Sponsorship money is going to be a joke with only one race. Without that money coming in the purse will remain low and none of the teams ever get ahead. It doesn't matter who you are and how much money you have. Footing the bill for your entire effort WILL get old after awhile. Weeeeell except for maybe Mike Brown. That's a big kid with one hell of a toybox .

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Re: When did it happen?

                              With all due respect to your background FNG... this apples and oranges..

                              And again, even if I agreed with you...

                              What's the solution if my idea isn't it??

                              So far, I've seen a lot of we can do this and that, most of which is "pie in the sky" such as "someone" can build new blocks, heads, cranks.. yadda..

                              Or.. "let's keep it like it is and let the rich guys pay"...

                              None of which is going to let us grow into a series...

                              People.. This is real. I'm really fishing for IDEAS and nobody is really giving up anything...

                              In the real world, nobody's got the money to throw three or more 200 grand engines at the sport annually..

                              So the Mustangs are going to pick one race, obviously the one with the biggest purse, Reno..

                              Who races the "series"...??

                              Would this really be a series..

                              OR, is Jeff Landers and anyone else who is trying to grow this just pumping air up their rears because it just can't be done?

                              IDEAS!

                              Comon, I know you can come up with better!

                              Wayne Sagar
                              "Pusher of Electrons"

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Re: When did it happen?

                                In a series you will see more unlimited airplanes like the Buick. Seems to have worked out for Brian. When is the last time you that crew doing an engine swap. This may force teams to look at other areas to improve their specific aircraft other than the engine. I often wonder if the turn em back to stock trend has slowed the progression of airframe mods. Are aircraft owners not so willing to hack up what many are considering a priceless warbird?

                                Just one more thing... Racing is racing. Any one who says that air racing and other motor sports don't relate need to pull your head out of the clouds. This is america and the logos and tv/media spots dictate the success of almost any sport... a little sex doesn't hurt either. Every sport that has grown into big money has learned that. I can't comment on what pushed that away in air racing people WILL get upset, but what will bring it back is more races/racing outside of Reno. Catch my drift... ya know what I mean wink wink nudge nudge.
                                Last edited by Wild Bill Kelso; 10-25-2005, 10:02 PM.

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