When did it happen?

[Sparrow]

Re: When did it happen?

Well I see Eric Ahlstrom has started it all again. I say the same thing now I did a couple of years ago except Dago has gone quite a bit over 500 MPH on the course-- so put your money where your mouth is and make the airplanes faster and while your at it--- spend a couple hundred thousand bucks and build a better Merlin-- since they are SO unreliable!! SA is right about why most of us don't post here.

Sparrow

[AAFO_WSagar]

Re: When did it happen?

Haven't had time to really look at this thread to figure out what about it got so emotional.. maybe the wording?

Obviously, the Rolls-Royce Merlin engine is one of the finest water cooled engines ever created. Immense power from a lightweight, relatively small displacement/weight package...

On the other side of that, I've been told by some pretty reliable sources that a week at Reno pretty well does in a full on racing merlin being pushed over 120+ inches...

Sparrow... not knocking the engines or builders but was I told wrong??

I don't get why ideas can't be thrown back and forth without the emotion level reaching levels of guys storming out of the room???

[matt]

Re: When did it happen?

sparrow, i can see your point about putting money down on the table to make a project work i can't agree that eric hasn't atleast tied to do so. he's paid people out of his own pocket to help with the design of the star dart, he put an immense amount of time and effort into the project trying to bring it to fruition, and i believe that if it hadn't been for problems beyond his control it would be racing today.

moving onto the more contraversial subject of merlin reliability. i realize this is your job and your livelihood but you do have to admit that mustang attrition is rather high at reno, i can think of four right off the top of my head that had engine failures significant enough to keep them from either racing on sunday or finishing (i am not placing blame on you or any other engine builders). the fact is there are many reasons why merlins fail from crappy bearings to being pushed too hard, it doesn't matter whose fault it is, what matters is that it's happening.

now i hope, sparrow, that you'll take this not as some railbird bagging on you (because this is not how it's meant) but as someone seeing a very distinct and dangerous pattern developing.

[Sparrow]

Re: When did it happen?

It is without a doubt hard on these engines to run them at 2+ times rated power-- on ANY of these engines. The Bear folks tend to have to work their asses off the same as the rest off us do when pulling high power. It tends to not be an easy week for anyone running an Unlimited Gold racer. I guess the problem lies within the fact that usually when those of us that have knowledge on inside info/subjects respond to comments on these boards there are some folks who will just flat tell you BS you don't know what you're talking about. There are many within the warbird industry who have commented in passing about just not sayin' a thing on the internet because of the fire that it usually draws.

Folks want to have all these ideas regarding the use of modern technology. I'm all for it, but the expense of this technology for a once year event that allot of people seem to question how long it will continue on is simply out of the question. Aside from that, how many of these engines do you want to damage/destroy to prove your ideas. In my opinion, you will have to prove the system on the engine it will be used on. Most air racers DO NOT have a NASCAR racing budget to expend upon their racers every year. Well, then lets have more races-- OK great. Work loads in all engine builders shops (Merlin) would make it difficult to keep up with the racing engine programs. When they did have 2 races a year for several years awhile back, the work load was just about berserk. Another way to look at it is the fact of the prize money. Even if you win the race and fly home, the chances of you really having MADE any money are 2--- slim and none.

As far as the emotional portion of it, I guess after you work yourself into oblivion and then listen to the same ol' stuff about the engines being no good-- what would you expect?? I am beyond a shadow of a doubt disappointed that we blew a piston, BUT, I was on Tiger's trailer with Dan being timed at 467 and change MPH. People say that's NOT a stock Mustang. Well in about a week it will be the same ol RR III. For that airplane to be that fast in it's stock airframe configuration is truly a feat. It still has gun blisters in the leading edge's, stock gun bay doors and non-bondoed or profiled wings. The airframe is really no different than Miss America's--- the tail still has the angle in it!

These folks race these airplanes in the configuration they are because they want to. The owner's pay the bills and they make the choices. These airplanes, all of them, hold a certain mystique if you will for a lot of folks. The unlimited's are why most folks come to Reno. There should be other venues of air racing explored. Follow Daryl Greenameyer's lead-- he has that little airplane going like hell and it's fun to watch him.

The WWII technology is probably pretty close to it's limit, but don't throw rocks at it because you think it can be made better. Sure it could be modernized, but the expense of it and the benefits that "could" be gained from it are hardly on an even scale. It would be easy to invest several hundred thousand over time when your trying to win $160K.

Just my .02.
Sparrow

[BadIdea]

Re: When did it happen?

<RANT>
Blaa Blaa Blaa
Just build a new high power engine.
Blaa Blaa Blaa
New Technology.
Blaa Blaa Blaa
Do you people have even a tiny clue?
How many years and dollars it took to get to a Merlin, 3350 or Centarus?
These warbird engines have been running on the false economy of military surplus for years.
What would a Rolls Royce or Curtis Wright would cost today if you had to fabricate every part from scratch?
Now add the R&D costs of a new design back in and see how many engines you can sell at that price.
</RANT>

[Wild Bill Kelso]

Re: When did it happen?

I am looking beyond air racing when it come to what I have in mind. Still alot of warbirds with 60 year old mags and carbs. Most of it exsists for applications outside of aviation. So R&D cost would not be bad.I think the tough part would be getting some body to let you borrow a 100 k engine to test it on. If we all stop dreaming we have no dreamers, and with out dreamers what would we have. In all other motorsports racing spawns new things that trickle down to the public. Let's look beyond racing and keep these warbirds in the air. So IF spares run out there are options. I just don't know why it seems like many have given up on this sport already. Many seem to oppose new blood, and thinking. Geez don't people remember being young and having passion. Why are we not allowed.

[First time Juke]

Re: When did it happen?

By the way, Juke....where is the Tigershark II, aka Snowball?

It is still evolving at the AIR RACE DESIGNER SECTION.

I am trying to optimize the size..and sorta balance it before I make any bigger model of it.

One of my ideas was to use a big two blader prop on it. Then someone in Finland said Harzell says a fourblader is always better than two. Late Spits had 5 bladers...i tought it is because they run outa gear lenght and wanted to maximize the effect of the more powerful engine.

Which is better..more blades and less size with blades or bigger blades and less of them ? Does it have to do with forces needed to control the plane in the air.

Regarding Eric Alstroms topic: I think no one is against new technology.
XB-42 Mixmaster was a 1942 design with a pusher props. It was able to carry payload faster and furher than any other equivalent aeroplane at the time. It had two conventional inlines back then in it. I guess it was overrunned by the jet age, the way of the future....the way of the future.

For a limited budget I think a rethinked TSUNAMI -concept might save the effort to make a new record...doubtlessly a Dart-type plane could easily override it.

There were some obstacless when I was thinking about it ( dart type aerodyne ). Matt cleverly introduced normal tailgear system on it. Tricycle would also need pretty high struts...also the shaft system is possible doable at low costs, but increases the weight of the tail fuse compared to a tractor layout.

All those obstacles can be conquered certainly by a good designing and planning....and cleaner aerodynamics at the transonic region will then pay back.

Germans had a first pusher Goeppingen ( 9 or 11 ? ) that had those elements that Mixmaster also had.

Remember in the early days..the props were in front or at behind...just like the wings and canards and tail feathers were too.


I hope this cleared some air ?


rgds,

Juke

[AAFO_WSagar]

Re: When did it happen?

The WWII technology is probably pretty close to it's limit, but don't throw rocks at it because you think it can be made better. Sure it could be modernized, but the expense of it and the benefits that "could" be gained from it are hardly on an even scale. It would be easy to invest several hundred thousand over time when your trying to win $160K.

Just my .02.
Sparrow

Mike, I've suggested what I'm about to suggest before and gotten shot down but...

I think a "restricter plate" regulation is the only way to compete in multi race "season" at least for now..

Obviously, it would not be a restrictor plate, maybe a popoff valve or just telemetry readings and DQ for going over the boost limits.

The racing would be just as good, very likely a LOT better.. Aero mods would be king. Obviously, a formula would have to be achieved because of the differences in round and inline engine boost levels but something could be set up.

We'd have good racing that didn't break engines (that often) and it could be affordable.. relatively...

Can the fan really tell the difference between 450 and 490? Does it really matter if something like this could be done and still keep the airplanes racing? Maybe expand the amount of races they can attend because a power plant might last for a season or two?

My $.02

[jarrodeu]

Re: When did it happen?

They are building new Yak's in Russia (or sorrounding areas) so why can't they build new merlins? I'm sure they would be stronger and more reliable due to new metals.
Jarrod

[SCEPTER]

Re: When did it happen?

They are building new Yak's in Russia

Can you order a race yak from Russia? That would be cool.

[SCEPTER]

Re: When did it happen?

As far as the emotional portion of it, I guess after you work yourself into oblivion and then listen to the same ol' stuff about the engines being no good-- what would you expect?? I am beyond a shadow of a doubt disappointed that we blew a piston, BUT, I was on Tiger's trailer with Dan being timed at 467 and change MPH. People say that's NOT a stock Mustang. Well in about a week it will be the same ol RR III. For that airplane to be that fast in it's stock airframe configuration is truly a feat. It still has gun blisters in the leading edge's, stock gun bay doors and non-bondoed or profiled wings. The airframe is really no different than Miss America's--- the tail still has the angle in it!

You have to be a little thick skinned on these web sites or you will go crazy.I have been really impressed with rr III.I saw it fly in hollister right before reno and saw it in reno.What you guys do with that airplane is unbeliveable and I appriciate it alot.KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK

[jarrodeu]

Re: When did it happen?

Can you order a race yak from Russia? That would be cool.

I know that Bruce Lockwood created a modified yak that was much faster than the stock one. I think I read somewhere that they made 19 so far.
Jarrod

[Peashooter]

Re: When did it happen?

The new Yaks were a one-time order of 20. And the Eastern Bloc company that was reproducing Merlin parts is TU, and that's not Tupolev. Niche markets giveth and taketh away!

[Sparrow]

Re: When did it happen?

Well, this is my last pass with this stuff for now--so.

Wayne, in regards to your suggestion- If you're familiar at all with Unlimited Hydroplane Racing and their efforts to "Limit" unlimited racing-- probably was not the best of ideas, in my opinion. Sure, the champion had won lots of races and had seemingly unlimited resources from which to draw. Last I knew the sponsorship had been withdrawn (for a multitude of reasons) and the boat was for sale. I don't think "Limiting" unlimited racing for the sake of longevity is the answer. If you go to race, you go to race- win, lose or draw.

Secondly, in regards to all you folk's ideas about the building of "New Merlin engines" and the use of modern technology, hey- those ideas are great---- Who's Gonna Pay For It??? In regards to just building "New" Merlin parts--- it's not that simple. Most P-51's that would really benefit from new production engine parts "Are Not" racers and therefore not in experimental category. Does the phrase "Product Liability" ring anyone's bell? Not to mention the liability issues, once again- Who Is Going TO Pay For It??? Most of the big items-- cylinder heads, crankcase's, gearing etc.etc. is very cost prohibitive to build. As an example, the Co. is still in existence in England that built Rolls/Packard crankshafts, they will be happy to produce them for you once again. All one needs do is place an order for 100 unit's at a small fee of $10,000.00 USD ea. Anybody want to put a million dollars worth of Merlin crankshafts in their inventory?? I have changed 1 crankshaft due to wear issues in 15 years. So- that still would leave 99 more to go and $990K tied up in inventory.

Now we have our new parts produced for use-- anybody want to take a "New" never been run before Merlin part (example: connecting rod) and have it installed in their new $150K fresh O/H engine to put in their $1.3 Million dollar just out of the restoration shop P-51? Do you guys realize the risks? There is a very strict test running program (remember the rules?) for these parts to go through before they "should" be used and then if there is a failure of the part in question, be it the builder's fault, the manufacturers fault or the pilot's fault--- or if something silly happened and it just failed for no one's fault. Who's Gonna Pay For It?? Once again, product liability ring anyone's bells????

I use a form of an automotive plug in the racing engines, they are $4 ea and you can throw them away after each race. The aviation grade plugs, one version's list price is $130 EACH (x24 per engine set). It's obvious which one is more desirable for the particular application. Back to the liability issue again-- We have tried through several different venues to get sponsorships from various spark plug suppliers-- if the words "Airplane or Aviation related" come up, guess what- they will not speak with you any longer and hang up. This is for a $4 spark plug---liability. They don't CARE that is for experimental racing use and want absolutely No part of anything remotely close to "Airplane Use."

As far as Merlin reliability goes, we blew a piston. So I changed the cylinder bank out and we flew home plus several more flights. Crazy? No, these engines are just that tough. The allison rod lower end, unless it is something REALLY bad is just almost impossible to tear up. Also, since everyone is criticizing engine reliability, I'll go one more- what about aircraft SYSTEM reliability-- including the pilot? If you have a critical system failure or if one lays down momentarily, at the power these engines are operated (even the round one's) the resultant engine malfunction is almost unavoidable. The engine can be the best in the world regardless of who built it-- if a support system hiccups, you're done. That feature is the same throughout any racing venue. The difference being is at Reno you have a once a year event to get it right. If it goes to ****, the next opportunity is 12 months away. In NASCAR or drag racing, the next opportunity is usually the following weekend. Therefore the obvious disparity is not quite so noticeable is it?

All of these idea's are feasible, allot of them have been tried before, electronic ignition for example. It didn't work to well. Maybe with the newer systems it could be made to play. You have to realise that blending modern ideas with 60 year old stuff usually isn't as easy as it looks on paper. Installing these systems and all of the wiring and related components in the airplane could be a challenge in itself. I bet Mike Luvara could testify to that in regards to getting the telemetry system working properly on some of these racers. I wonder if anyone would install a full electronic dual ignition system on a racing Merlin, get it fairly well proven and reliable and then take it to Reno for the week. I think I would run a mag on one side and the electronic on the other. When you start running these thing really hard thing's have a tendency to change. Mag's are still very reliable technology. A lot of folks that are smarter than me have tried this stuff and the success hasn't been that great. I have had parts analysed by engineers and metallurgists with the thought of making a small amount of them for my racing needs. They always say "with the newer more modern materials and machining processes they will be so much better." I sent one particular part off for that purpose. Guess what? The analysis proved that the way it was originally manufactured couldn't really be improved upon. Even the same material that was used originally was spec'd out for the job. Only the material itself was slightly better because of the newer processes of forging, metal de-gassing etc.

That's it, food for thought.
See Ya-- Sparrow

[CoastieAux]

Re: When did it happen?

It is without a doubt hard on these engines to run them at 2+ times rated power-- on ANY of these engines. The Bear folks tend to have to work their asses off the same as the rest off us do when pulling high power...

An interesting concept to follow a little further.

The original was a V-1650 Merlin made to run at 60 inches of manifold pressure producing 1500 stock horsepower. They have taken this motor and produced over double the horsepower at double the manifold pressure. We do not have to get into exacts here for the purpose of surface examination.

This overworked motor is competing head to head with R-3350's and R-4360's and usually winning as long as they can stay together...and then we talk about it as if it just "flies apart" because it is "unreliable".

In the interest of preserving the warbird community, I would like to see a new version of the Merlin created with more horsepower and better alloys. I can't believe no one has done it yet. I am sure there is a market, and a lot of money to be made.

I really do not think we need to be disrespectful towards a design that has stood the test of time, the test of hard race modification, and the test of competition against motors twice the size.