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Thread: The Pond Racer.....Rutan's Watergate

  1. #51
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    Default Re: The Pond Racer.....Rutan's Watergate

    Ken

    After I re-read my post I see where you would get that impression. I actually meant Bob Pond when I wote that. I fully realize Burt was well paid for the project. Sorry for the confusion.

    ~Red
    Red
    chanting...400+

  2. #52
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    Default Re: The Pond Racer.....Rutan's Watergate

    Originally Posted by King:
    Ah, but you said it was a poor design. What is posted above appears to be a builder problem.


    REPLY:
    It was not a builder problem. Winfoil was inadequate for especially in cases like recovery from a spin AFAIK.

    As far as EZ and eze spin performance, I do know the designs of his canard aircraft were intended to help prevent pilots from entering a spin in the first place compared to rear-elevator designs (by making it so difficult to stall and roll over). What happens if you somehow find a way to enter a spin in a varieze or long-ez, I can't say, but it must have taken some effort to get there.

    There may be some grain of truth behind the comment about an inadequate forward wing design though. In the PDF file, a short-chord elevator was part of the early varieze design, and it was later recommended that owners stop flying until they replace it with an improved longer chord design (there's even a photo of a short-chord elevator modified into the longer unit).

    I have found no documentation mentioning that the forward canard airfoil was a poor design in itself, but there is text saying that it's shape, weight and balance were extremely critical. It's always possible that the shape did have problems, so if you run across such text mentioned anywhere, please post a link to it.

    ----------

    Before I could feel comfortable saying that Rutan couldn't design a winning unlimited racer, I'd have to see what he could come up with under HIS OWN specifications. I believe the Pond Racer had a large number of compromises set by Bob Pond himself that Burt would not have selected if he had the full privilege of choice. Perhaps Burt would have gone with something more along the lines of the Boomerang twin layout.

    Maybe someday, somebody will put up the funds for a new unlimited racer and give Burt full leeway to design it all to his liking, and then we will find out for sure. Until then (if ever), I will withhold my opinion of his racer-building abilities.

    Of course, if Mr. Rutan doesn't feel comfortable building racers anymore after the loss of Rick, I can fully understand that position. I think I'd feel that way too.

    .

  3. #53
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    Default Re: The Pond Racer.....Rutan's Watergate

    Addition to my last post:

    A search for articles mentioning canard spin problems came up dry, but I did run across some good related stuff (isn't the internet wonderful?):


    Loss of Varieze canard lift in rainy conditions:
    http://www.ez.org/cp43-p1.htm


    Good text about designing the Varieze, which includes mentioning problems resulting from owners making mods to the original design.
    (It also mentions where the canard airfoil shape originated):
    http://www.nasm.si.edu/research/aero.../rutan_eze.htm


    This page about spin resistance gives a good description of all the research and testing of the Varieze design among others, including "wind-tunnel force and free-flight studies of a subscale VariEze model and wind-tunnel force, moment, and pressure studies of a full-scale VariEze model"
    (great shots of the long-gone OMAC too!):
    http://oea.larc.nasa.gov/PAIS/Concep...esistance.html

    ------------------------------------------------------------------
    (I don't know about other folk, but I love reading this stuff! The more I read & learn, the better I understand the true situations. I'm saving copies of all these sites for later reviewing in full when I have time).
    ------------------------------------------------------------------


    Unintentional spin in a Long-EZ
    (No mentiion of airfoil problems, but a weight/balance problem of that particular aircraft is mentioned):
    http://www.ez.org/cp36-p4.htm


    Finally, this page at EZ.org is filled to the brim with articles about problems and solutions with canard/pushers. I don't see any title mentiioning spin problems with airfoils, but I haven't visited even a fraction of the articles yet. Looks like a treasure chest of info though:
    http://www.ez.org/canard.htm

    ================================================== ==

    Well, I can't find anything mentioning problems of the airfoil associated with raindrops or flaws in surface finish. I did find several places mentioning that there was extensive spin testing done to the aircraft, with no mention of problems surfacing.

    I also found text verifying Red's reply to the comment about the lack of performance compared to the standard configuration RV, Glassair and Lancair. The stall resistance and safety factor of the canard design is a trade-off for performance and top speed. You simply cannot have both max speed and maximum stall/spin resistance in any aircraft design that I am aware of.


    My apologies to all if I overdid it a bit with my postings, but this is a subject with many points and areas of discussion, and I wanted to cover as many as possible to avoid any confusion or misunderstandings with my comments.
    .

  4. #54

    Default Re: The Pond Racer.....Rutan's Watergate

    Quote Originally Posted by AirDOGGe

    Loss of Varieze canard lift in rainy conditions:
    http://www.ez.org/cp43-p1.htm
    This was the incident I was referring to ( moist conditions ).

  5. #55
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    Default Re: The Pond Racer.....Rutan's Watergate

    Has anyone ever figured out why the engines on the Pond Racer were constantly overheating? I have always suspected the "g" loads caused a restriction of coolant flow. It seemed to be fine in straight and level flight. The automotive based racing engines were never designed for the air racing enviroment. I wonder if a boost pump for the coolant could have overcome the effect of race conditions.

    Just pure conjecture on my part. I'm sure someone here has more knowledge of it than I do.

    Kevin

  6. #56
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    Default Re: The Pond Racer.....Rutan's Watergate

    Originally Posted by AirDOGGe:
    Loss of Varieze canard lift in rainy conditions:
    http://www.ez.org/cp43-p1.htm

    Juke's reply:
    This was the incident I was referring to ( moist conditions ).
    There's a lot of accidents on that ez.org page. I wonder if the accident you referred to is there? I haven't reviewed them yet. I only read so far of one EZ or eze takeoff accident that was due to improper weight and/or balance.


    TYPO NOTE:

    In my prior post, I stated:
    "Well, I can't find anything mentioning problems of the airfoil associated with raindrops or flaws in surface finish. "

    What I meant to say was:
    "Well, I can't find anything mentioning problems of the airfoil EXCEPT THOSE associated with raindrops or flaws in surface finish. " The time-limit for editing posts ran out before I could correct it. Sorry about that
    .

  7. #57
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    Default Re: The Pond Racer.....Rutan's Watergate

    Well I understand everything now it's all so clear to me.
    It's either "this sort a thing or that kind of a deal"

  8. #58

    Default Re: The Pond Racer.....Rutan's Watergate

    Quote Originally Posted by AirDOGGe
    There's a lot of accidents on that ez.org page.
    Right it is not the NTSB report that I tought it was. I try to find it for you.

    Here is more about John Denver crash.

    http://www.provide.net/~pratt1/ambuilt/liabhome.htm

    These NTSB reports indicate that a Vari Ez is ok flyer after engine failure:
    http://www8.landings.com/cgi-bin/nph...dat&pos=298960
    http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=29141&key=0


    Here is a NTSB report of a fatal accident with Vari-Ez type of aircraft ( not a Vari-eZ THAT IS ).
    http://www8.landings.com/cgi-bin/nph...dat&pos=657712

    Apparently like this Reno visitor:
    http://www.berkutengineering.com/media/reno1.jpg

    Vari-Ez accident due to corrosion:
    http://ez.org/corrosion.htm

    Here is a bad example with a vari-Eze ( from: http://www.airsidevillage.com/tenxsafer.html ):

    ***4. Don't buzz things
    Flying very low over houses and people and buildings has a long and stupid tradition in aviation. I remember when I heard that Jimmy (yes that was his real name) had killed himself and his stepson with a high-speed crash of a Vari-Eze sport plane in the mountains of Tennessee. He was buzzing a house where a friend of his lived when he hit the ground at about 200 mph. The largest piece left of the airplane after that crash was about three feet long. I will spare you the description of Jimmy.***
    One Vari-Eze accident here: http://www.iflyamerica.org/accidentinfo.asp
    Last edited by First time Juke; 03-10-2005 at 01:00 AM.

  9. #59

    Default Re: The Pond Racer.....Rutan's Watergate

    12 pages of accidents related to canard wing aircrafts here:

    http://70.183.88.150/phpBB2/search.p...2432&start=200

    Very interesting.

  10. #60

    Default Re: The Pond Racer.....Rutan's Watergate

    If link above don't work try this: http://70.183.88.150/phpBB2/search.php?mode=results

    Type in accident or accidents.

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