What Every Happen to..........

[Rob R]

Hi Guys,

What every happen to the idea of haven Air Races held thru out the Country like a NASCAR in the Air.

I remember that some of the guys were looking into it but then it seem to fall off the face of the planet.

I would think that it could work if you limit the number of places and set up standard race courses.

Lets say 12 races with RENO being the last one, I know up here in Maine we have Loring AFB which is one of the largest former SAC base that could handle such event. Their must be other Forner AFB and USNB that could be used. I would think it would be good for the local econemy.

Also I think it could work on TV hell lets look at NASCAR and their coverage, could you see it now Steve pulls up in the T-33 and down the shuet we get a Bellie Cam. shot of Rare Bear followed by a wing tip cam of Dago Red jocking with the Bear. Now that would be some great camera shots.

Over to you guys

Cheers RR

[Gary Osif]

Re: What Every Happen to..........

It's all about money. Sponsorship is needed on a grand scale to create a series of races. Getting it televised is an even bigger step.

The Unlimited Hydroplanes are a good comparison, in a lot of respects. They can get 200,000 fans at a race and they STILL are looked at as a 'non-mainstream' sport(for lack of a better term).

I would think getting race sites for airracing would be an enormous task, with insurance restrictions and the like.

Gary

https://www.propsracing.com

[speeddemon]

Re: What Every Happen to..........

I think the bigger issue here is 'space'. It's not a matter of finding an airport big enough to hold a race. It's about finding an airport big enough, WITH SOURROUNDING AREA SUITABLE FOR RACING. Yeah, there are lots of great airports, but just outside the airport proper, there are trees, populations, and unfavorable terrain.

Reno works because it's out in the middle of nowhere (or at least it was for a long time...it keeps getting more and more crowded all the time). This is why Mojave was the IDEAL place for a race, because there was NOTHING out there to hit, nothing to encroach upon, and had a flat terrain that made for unobstructed views of all the pylons.

Take a look at some of the other sites that have been tried in the past. Cape May, NJ, Miami, FL (in two different places), Hamilton AFB in the Bay area, Kansas City, KS, Sherman AFB, TX., Shafter, CA...these were all sites where the race course was (by necessity) extended over private property, where the pylons were set in amongst trees, or out over the water (!), and very hard to see.

More important than that, however, Reno has lasted because there is something to DO in Reno. The draw of the nightlife downtown is something that is CONSTANTLY looked over when people start making noise about a racing 'series'. Mojave was within an hour or so of Los Angeles. Phoenix was just outside of town. Sherman-Dennison and Aurora were about an hour out of Dallas and Denver respectively....as were the two Miami races. They were all relatively close to 'large' population centers...but still were lucky to get anything even close to respectable as far as crowd numbers are concerned.

Why?

Because there was NOTHING to do after the show. But at Reno, we all know what there is to do in town. Now, I know I'll get a bunch of 'die-hard' fans who say "but I never go into town, and I just come to see the races". The problem is, however, that that only makes up a small percentage of the people in the stands. How many other airshows across the country to do people show up from all over the world for? I can count the number of them on one hand, most likely.

The die-hards would show up no matter WHERE a race was put on. But that number isn't even enough to fill the Reno grandstands for one day. (Remember, the 200,000 + attendance figures for Reno are a FOUR DAY total, with the majority of those being re-counted every day. It's not an 'inflated' number as far as gate count goes, but it does reduce the size of the 'fan base'...because it's really 50,000 times four days.)

No other race site has ever come close to pulling in those kind of numbers...and it's because the nightlife in downtown Reno is a 'secondary' draw.

The final point I'd like to throw out has to do with equipment. It would just be far too expensive to run more than two or three races...let alone 10 or 12. Most of these guys save all year just to go to one race, and even then, if something goes wrong, their equipment depth isn't there to keep going. Most times, once they blow an engine, they're done. Know how expensive an engine is? The 'big dogs' have their one primary 'race engine' torn down after Reno each year, and it takes several months just to have it overhauled. Do you really think that ANYONE could afford to have enough engines to 'rotate' through a maintenance/overhaul schedule to support a 12 race season? NASCAR-type prize money would maybe come close to being able to support this kind of a schedule.

Not trying to be a wet blanket for enthusiasm here, but I have been in air racing for a LONG time, and I have a 'realist' approach about it all. Reno is the only game in town for now as far as real 'racing' is concerned...and it's going to be that way for a long time. Accept it and enjoy it for what it is.

Just my .02.

[Old Ramp Rat]

Re: What Every Happen to..........

ONE of the reasons that NASCAR works, is the "formula" of the designs.They create a bond with the fans, by keeping the cars, looking (reasonably close) to something the average fan, COULD, have in the driveway. That coupled with the marketing of the drivers, keeps the "common" fan thinking, "that COULD be me out there"...., the fan bonds with a personality or brand, and makes the HUGE crowds possible.

Lacking the inter-country rivalry's that drive many European fans,
(making them an entirely different commodity), just having the appreciation of the skill, artistry & hard work involved in air racing, is NOT going to put 400,000 butts in the bleachers, every weekend, and of COARSE the $ is the bottom line, generating enough money to re-build a Merlin or two EVERY weekend, doesn't seem likely.

Maybe if we made all the race planes LOOK like Cessna's and Pipers....
................UUUGGGHHHH!

[Rob R]

Re: What Every Happen to..........

Hi All,

First yes I do know how much it cost to rebuild an engine or two second has anyone evr been to NH for NASCAR their is nothing to do but now the town has build it self up look at all of the NASCAR site alot of them are sleepy little place that have been build up.

Has anyone try to get the big guys together and make a package intro. to some of NASCAR Sponcors? I know that when I was talking with some guys about RENO they said it would be an interesting thing to try.

As for Space their are plenty of place that these can be held you set up an uniformed Race track, and yes people will go to this events has anyone gone to a NASCAR event lately?

You can start off small with the T-6 and Bi-Planes and then add the Big boys over time. plus remember outside of NASCAR Airshow attract the largest crowds.

Cheers RR

[Unregistered]

Re: What Every Happen to..........

I would think something more along the lines of the Triple Crown of horse racing.

Three events. With sponsorship, that might just be enough to draw TV coverage. It would be enough to crown a points champ in each class. Doesn't hurt to have guys like Dave Despain in your corner either.

It MIGHT be affordable for the aircraft owners. But with enough prize money and sponsorship, it could work.

Steve

[AAFO_WSagar]

Re: What Every Happen to..........

I used to dream about this also but in reality, for most race teams, it would take a complete reordering of the way they do things.

Again, for most crews, they are 100% volunteer, simply getting the airplane ready for one race a year at Reno is extremely difficult and, as we've seen, sometimes, impossible.

It also comes down to the owners, for sure we have guys who have money to burn in the sport but in a lot of cases, very very likely, most cases, it's boarderline for them as to whether or not they can really afford to be at Reno..

It would quite simply be completely impossible to have a 12 race schedule, even it you infused HUGE sums of money to the owners (to pay crews etc) the time it would take to ramp up from what we have now, to what this would entail would be way more than a year....

I think *maybe* two or three races at most is all we *may* ever see... I agree with "triple crown" on this part... I also agree with Speed in that enjoy what we have while we have it... it all could go away in a heartbeat..

As much as I'd love to see it happen, we'll never see a 12 or 8 or 6 race season, it just will not happen.. sad but, I think, true.

Wayne

[speeddemon]

Re: What Every Happen to..........

I think you're still missing the point. You DON'T have places where you have an 'uninhabited' race course around the airport. They are way too few and far between. Trust me...I've done a lot of traveling and seen a lot of airports around the country...and very few of them have all the things needed to put on a successful race (near a population center, roads for access big enough to handle the crowds, at least two BIG runways, about 10 square miles of ininhabited real estate to set up the course, and the air above it which can be 'closed' to air traffic, AND an airport that doesn't have regularly scheduled 'air service' to contend with).

There have been a LOT of attempts made at an air racing series since 1964. PRPA tried for about 10 years, Air Race Management, Air Racing Unlimited, National Air Racing Association, Air Racing Limited...you know, a lot of these were relative 'big buck' efforts too. Remember when RJR/Nabisco brought the Air Camel sponsorship in during the late 1980's? That only lasted two years, because it just wasn't worth the input compared to the output you got from other forms of motorsports. IT JUST DOESN"T WORK.

The NASCAR race in New Hampshire is big because NASCAR has a tried and true formula, that includes big money...big money that has drained virtually every other form of motorsport over the last 15 years. A NASCAR race offers 43 cars that race for anywhere between three to five hours SOLID....and they have side by side racing to hold the fans attention. NASCAR can go into any track in any town and bring the show with them. You're talking apples and oranges.

You won't ever have that kind of competition in air racing, unless you go for the Mojave 1000 idea, or the thing that Kerch talked about on AAFO a few years back.

Again, I'm not trying to be the wet blanket here...but you have to be realistic about it. The world isn't ready for 'big time air racing'. NOTHING against the FI, Bipe, or even T-6 and Sport Classes...they are all fun to watch in their own right....but the real and the ONLY draw is the Unlimiteds. Always have been, always will be.

Ask Randy Goss how many 'smaller' races the T-6's have raced at over the last 20 years. How many have had anything more than a couple thousand people in attendance? Betty Bear...what kind of draw did you get in '85 and '86 with the T-6 and F1 races in Richland? Ask the Sharps how well the Fox Field F1 races went. Or how about the races in Laughlin, NV? The numbers just aren't there...so 'starting up' with the smaller classes and moving up to the 'big boys' isn't really an option. Your airshow will go bankrupt long before an Unlimited ever turns a pylon.

About the only 'hope' I could see would be for the Sport Class to try to do a travelling series, or something. Big, loud, and fast enough to attract attention, on a relatively big course, but half the size of the Unlimited Course. EVEN THEN, though, you're still talking about a big area around the airport that would have to support all the stuff I mentioned above.

It all sounds good on a message board, but reality is something altogether different.

[Rob R]

Re: What Every Happen to..........

Ok Guys,

Since I live up here in the Great White North or better know as Maine, we have a rather large Former USAF Base not being used.To give you the idea of the size of its runway the main reason why this base runway is kept up is because its a Shuttle Egrees base.

Now I like the idea of a triple crown idea, maybe six races,

1 North East
2 Mid West
3 Pacific North West
4 South East
5 A straight speed race rom North to South or vice versa
6 Reno as the final race

Now before we start saying can't be done has anyone really sat down and talk with Networks and Sponsors. If you can sell the idea then it can work. Who would ever think to see NASCAR in Southern Calf., New Hampshire, or better yet who fought we would see on TV some of the sporting events like the X-Games which now make ABC millions of dollars all it takes is someone to say hey lets try this. Remember NASCAR and the X-Games both started on ESPN in the early part of network TV and look at them now.

I say it can happen and if soemone wants to point me in the right deriction of the racers then I'll start asking what the worst can happen NOTHING.

Chers RR

[AAFO_WSagar]

Re: What Every Happen to..........

I think you're still missing the point. You DON'T have places where you have an 'uninhabited' race course around the airport.

Speed, I'm not missing that point, I just made the "other" point of why it's too difficult to make happen... The airport thing, I'm keenly aware of... trust me! And they cost a ton to develop from scratch in the few areas that *are* compatible with racing but for the missing long stretch of asphalt to land on...

Now before we start saying can't be done has anyone really sat down and talk with Networks and Sponsors. If you can sell the idea then it can work. Who would ever think to see NASCAR in Southern Calf

Rob, believe me, a lot of people have talked until they all have headaches, Air Racing, for some reason, is a tough media sell.. I think, part of it is because it has not really been done since technology caught up to it (in plane cameras)

But ask Jeff Lee and Dave de Vos, it's a tough thing to capture the action on video. I't's not like NASCAR or other types of motor racing, where there is a lot of close action. It's a tough media event to get on "tape"...

As for why NASCAR is so popular.. one word... actually three "Days of Thunder" it brought NASCAR to an entirely new and HUGE audience... Maybe if a movie was made about air racing, the situation would change but the factors of places to do it and dollars and airplanes to do it with would still exist..

My three and a half bucks on the subject

[Eric]

Re: What Every Happen to..........

Crew avalibility would be a big fact also since, as Wayne mentioned, most are volunteer and have regular jobs they must attend too. The cost of maintaining not only the aircraft but crew essentials would be very costly. Finding a suitable location is just the tip of a mighty big iceberg.

[AAFO_WSagar]

Re: What Every Happen to..........

Crew avalibility would be a big fact also since, as Wayne mentioned, most are volunteer and have regular jobs they must attend too. The cost of maintaining not only the aircraft but crew essentials would be very costly. Finding a suitable location is just the tip of a mighty big iceberg.

I like the analogy Eric, it is a mighty big iceberg, indeed!

Not *only* would an existing crew have to be funded, the current members would have to make the career choice from their regular jobs.... and some of these guys (many) have pretty darn good jobs... plus the nomadic lifestyle of being a part of what would be a traveling road show... I think we all know, we could go on forever with the reasons why a *series* could never happen (not to even mention the scarcity of parts to keep 50+ year old birds flying and competitive)

We could see two, maybe three events a year, which for my tastes, would be quite enough (I'm gettin old and tired ) but the series thing really could only happen with, maybe a completely new batch of racers... (ta heck with that! )

Wayne

[Eric]

Re: What Every Happen to..........

Two or 3 races would be perfect. The once a year thing builds a crap load of excitement and I dont want to loose that. Going to Reno every year is like a pilgrimage of the faithful from the maintainers and pilots to the crazy folks who go watch them from every possible location around stead! I just dont want to see a good thing messed up in the quest for ratings.

[mgbf4u]

Re: What Every Happen to..........

Just add NASCAR restrictor plates...blah blah blah...
check out WWW.WILDFIREAIRRACING.COM
It would be cool, 'cause it would happen in Texas too.
And I'd go.