Are Griffon engined racers the answer?

[First time Juke]

Re: Are Griffon engined racers the answer?

How about the 2250 hp Allisons of the H model Mustangs...any of them around..could that be tweaked into a 3500-3800 hp producing engine ?


Juke

[matt]

Re: Are Griffon engined racers the answer?

h model mustangs had -9 merlins juke.

i think you mean later f-82's and yes there are a few around and yes, from what i hear there is a team looking to use them.

[Sparrow]

Re: Are Griffon engined racers the answer?

As has alreadybeen mentioned here, the problem with the Griffons is the availability of parts to create a high powered "reliable" engine. Griffons were put into various models of Spitfires, as far as I know Griffon crank rotation is the same as a Merlin--LH. The engine in Precious Metal is a result of a mix of parts from various engine's and it does have a 2 stage blower from a Griffon 74. The nosecase arrangement from the 57/58 engines which were fitted to the Shackleton's would have to be replaced with a power section from a differant -# Griffon to obtain the single prop shaft arrangement. Firefly engine may be a candidate although I don't know the -# of that engine. Also the blower gears in the Precious Metal engine are specials that are left over's from the Budwiser Unlimited Hydro days of Griffon powered Thunder boats, so one could bet there aren't many of those sets of gears available. There are as many mods required of the Griffon to make it live under high power as there are to the high powered Merlin's. Part's in general are difficult to find for Griffons, especially the transport version of the cylinder banks and the 2 stage blowers. The blower's were a problem in the late 70's when David Zueshel was putting together the Red Baron engine. Sparrow

[First time Juke]

Re: Are Griffon engined racers the answer?

h model mustangs had -9 merlins juke.

i think you mean later f-82's and yes there are a few around and yes, from what i hear there is a team looking to use them.

Ok I mean the P-82s of course..I had the Allison connected with lotsa power to a P-51D lookalike and assumed it was a P 51H, sorry.

best regards,

Juke

[matt]

Re: Are Griffon engined racers the answer?

thanks for the correction on the griffon's crank rotation sparrow. fairey firefly's, 60 years ago, had -3 griffons. i'm not sure what that one has now (any word?) but if it is a -3 i don't think it would be a good racing engine. what is the difference between transport and other types of cylinder banks?

[MerlinV12]

Re: Are Griffon engined racers the answer?

We already did at Mojave in 1973. Three F-86's on a 15 mile course, pulling close to their G limit, went 600 to 636 depending on the rated thrust.

With f86 do you the sabre and i mean when do you see unlimted racer go 600 mph??

[jarrodeu]

Re: Are Griffon engined racers the answer?

At this rate a long long time down the road.
They need more money to do massive speed. Look at the Indy 500.
The best thing would be to build your own airplane from scratch usaing the design of something of NASA or Boeing or Lockheed. Then go to Japan and have say Toyota build you an engine 90% of the size of a Merlin(I think 1484ci.) with 4500+HP. With a lot of money it could be done.
Jarrod

[speeddemon]

Re: Are Griffon engined racers the answer?

No, the BEST thing to do is not to do it in the first place. As we say in the boat racing business: The best way to get a 'small' fortune in boat racing is to start with a 'large' fortune....and wait a couple of years.

[jarrodeu]

Re: Are Griffon engined racers the answer?

That may be true now speeddemon but look at NASCAR Tons o Mooolaa
Besides Airracing now is just an expensive hobby
Jarrod

[matt]

Re: Are Griffon engined racers the answer?

i've looked into designing prop planes that would go subsonic, even supersonic (though i can't claim to know it all this is what i do know) as a prop plane approaches the speed of sound the drag created by the prop increases exponentially, something like the way drag from a straight wing will increase as it approaches mach 1.

herein lies the two main problems; how do you create an engine that produces enough power to keep it at that speed with some kind of efficiency (let's face it, if you burn off all your fuel at 600 mph in just a few minutes it won't get you far) and, what prop design do you use to keep drag down as much as physically possible but still be able to absorb most of the power the engine creates?

as far as i know there were only two prop planes to ever accomplish this, the tu-95 bear and the lear fan, granted neither reached a speed of 600 mph but they're the closest anyone has ever gotten.

[jarrodeu]

Re: Are Griffon engined racers the answer?

Yea but the Bears engines were bigger than a car. That stuff is getting close to over my head.

[speeddemon]

Re: Are Griffon engined racers the answer?

That may be true now speeddemon but look at NASCAR Tons o Mooolaa
Besides Airracing now is just an expensive hobby
Jarrod

Comparing NASCAR to Air Racing is not just a farce, it's not even an option. Tons of 'mooolaa' is there because there are 30+ races over the course of the season, spread out at tracks all over the country. The money is there because there is not only the tv exposure, but the facilities as well.

There have only been TWO sites that have truly been acceptable to race at over the last 40 years...Reno, and Mojave. Every other site that has been tried has always had some sort of topographical obstacles that either made the course too short, out over water, over someone's farm land, etc. You can build a NASCAR track on a few acres of land. Takes a bit more than that to have an optimum site for airplanes to fly around at.

Air racing will never truly be a 'professional' circuit, like NASCAR or IRL, or F-1. It's too much of a niche' sport, and the airplanes themselves would have a hard time running more than two or three races in a year anyhow.

If you're going to be a fan of air racing, you have to accept that there are certain limitations that will always keep it a niche' sport. There's nothing wrong with that, mind you. It's just a fact. And maybe that's a good thing. Gives everyone something to really look forward to every year.


But I am open to the possibility of Mojave going again....... :-)

[matt]

Re: Are Griffon engined racers the answer?

that's exactly it, they were bigger than a car which is why it could very easily provide 5000 hp and turn 8, 8' prop blades. also the prop designs were really efficient, allowing it to push alot more air at a reduced power setting.

lol, and this is just the beginning. don't worry, when i was 16 i didn't know any of this stuff.

[matt]

Re: Are Griffon engined racers the answer?

lol speed, you and mojave dude...

[jarrodeu]

Re: Are Griffon engined racers the answer?

I think it was around 15,000 HP but Ill check.