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Thread: Understanding the Super Stangs

  1. #11

    Default Re: Understanding the Super Stangs

    Quote Originally Posted by CRJpilot View Post
    Interesting info and also fantastic links to the Golden Pylons magazines at flipsnack.

    Question - are the Golden Pylons magazines available as either a paper copy or downloadable pdf file to view offline?

    I suppose a membership to the flipsnap site might be the only way?

    Thanks again!

    Don
    I've been trying to get Timmothy to register here. He's tried, but hasn't been successful yet. I think Wayne got everything fixed however. I'm hoping he will share the stuff from Golden Pylons here.

    Will

  2. #12
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
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    Canada
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    Default Re: Understanding the Super Stangs

    Thanks for the response!

    There is a wealth of knowledge in those articles, I'd love to have offline copies.

    Don

  3. #13

    Default Re: Understanding the Super Stangs

    Quote Originally Posted by Big_Jim View Post
    For the record, Neal, Hevle won in 1982 at 405ph....but that was only after Crocker pulled out with a blown motor. As I recall, up to that point they were in the 430s head-to-head.

    So to address Zac's question, as Neal pointed out, is a long and complicated one. Dago Red (1982) and Strega (1983) were pretty much identical clones when they came out, except for the canopy. Dago had a flip top and Strega a slider. But they were both based on a combination of what Tiger and Frank Taylor had seen on Jeannie at Reno '81, except with bigger canopies (I recall Zeuschel referring to them as both 'fishbowls' and 'touring canopies' at various times).

    Dago had the initial success, but Strega pulled ahead in development when Dwight Thorne came on board in 1985 and convinced Tiger to go with the Allison-rod program, and when Bill Kerchenfaut came on board in 1986. Kerch came from the Sumthin' Else team, where he had worked with Jim Larsen, and Larsen was really big on airframe refinement. Kerch told Tiger that there was a lot of room for improvement on Strega, to which Tiger told him it was fast enough already. Kerch sort of smiled and nodded his head in a 'yeah, we'll see..." manner.

    So Kerch (and Larsen) brought lots of 'little' but significant aero upgrades (scoop, control surface hinges and holes, profiling) and the cuffed propeller. And Dwight finally had enough $$$ to bring the Mouse Motor on line, and it paid off with the win at Reno '87. During this time Dago had passed on to Alan Preston who had a lot of money, and even though he had a lot of toys to play with, didn't really take much care of the plane. Dago went to David Price in '89 as he and Preston joined forces in the Museum of Flying camp.

    Strega had progressed to the fastest Mustang and Dago was stagnant. I recall Ron Hevle took a test flight in Dago about that time and him saying it was 'really rough' compared to Strega. But starting in 1993, the MoF guys (including Chris Wood and Bruce Lockwood) started dumping a lot of r&d money into the Dago program. They started copying the Strega aero mods (including a couple different types of radiator scoops), new wingtips, wing and fuselage profiling, cuffed prop, and also invested in an Allison-rod Merlin program from Dwight Thorne.

    Now, beyond that point...I am going to put the links up for the Winter and Spring issues of Golden Pylons, which have a great story about Dwight and the Mouse Motor program that kind of tells all the politics of the three-way struggle of the "Jeannie clones" Dago/Strega/Voodoo. Great reading, so I recommend taking the time to do so. It'll answer a lot of questions...including Neal's latest 'quiz'...the answer to which is Bill Kerchenfaut.

    https://www.flipsnack.com/sarhgp/gol...KQQh4g47w-IYTI

    https://www.flipsnack.com/sarhgp/gol...91wW9-eVnKuddM



    As for the differences/similarities between Strega and Voodoo during the 2010-2017 timeframe (after the Golden Pylons stories end), that is yet another convoluted era of rotating pilot seats and rotating engine builders (using Dwight's technology). But that is for another post.
    Thanks so much for those links. Great articles, fascinating stuff.

  4. #14
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
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    Default Re: Understanding the Super Stangs

    Here is Dago and Sumpin Else in 82, them neck and neck, and the result of Crocker's engine failure.
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  5. #15
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    Sep 2012
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    Default Re: Understanding the Super Stangs

    Folks this is truly fascinating stuff, thank you for answering my call. I realise it's a big question but, like Will alluded to, better to ask here and have these insights in an easy-to-find thread than to ask in three or four separate Facebook groups.

  6. #16
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
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    Germany
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    145

    Default Re: Understanding the Super Stangs

    I think the question needs to be asked, how do you define a "Super Stang"?

    Going back to Sumthin' Else or Jeannie doesn't go far back enough in my mind. You can find Dwight Thorne, Jim Larsen, Jack Hovey and others involved in Gunther Balz' "Roto Finish Special" and Bob Love's "Oogahonk Special". Balz beat six-time winner "Conquest 1" with Richard Laidley at the controls in 72'. Was Roto Finish not a Super Stang?

    And remember, Roto Finish became "The Red Baron" in 1974 with a cast including Mac McClain, Bruce Boland, Pete Law, Dave Zeuschel, Phil Greenberg, Bob Carr and others. Was The Red Baron not a Super Stang? Or we can go in reverse as before Balz had RFS it was Chuck Hall's "Miss RJ".

    What about Ken Burnstine's Miss Foxy Lady - the airplane that became "Sumthin' Else"?

    What about Cliff Cummins' "Miss Candace"?

    We can go back to Chuck Lyford and the Bardahl boys if you like. They were all Super Stangs in their day. If you're only talking about Jeannie, Dago, Strega and Voodoo, you need a tighter definition than Super Stang in my opinion.

  7. #17

    Default Re: Understanding the Super Stangs

    Quote Originally Posted by Jan View Post
    I think the question needs to be asked, how do you define a "Super Stang"?

    Going back to Sumthin' Else or Jeannie doesn't go far back enough in my mind. You can find Dwight Thorne, Jim Larsen, Jack Hovey and others involved in Gunther Balz' "Roto Finish Special" and Bob Love's "Oogahonk Special". Balz beat six-time winner "Conquest 1" with Richard Laidley at the controls in 72'. Was Roto Finish not a Super Stang?

    And remember, Roto Finish became "The Red Baron" in 1974 with a cast including Mac McClain, Bruce Boland, Pete Law, Dave Zeuschel, Phil Greenberg, Bob Carr and others. Was The Red Baron not a Super Stang? Or we can go in reverse as before Balz had RFS it was Chuck Hall's "Miss RJ".

    What about Ken Burnstine's Miss Foxy Lady - the airplane that became "Sumthin' Else"?

    What about Cliff Cummins' "Miss Candace"?

    We can go back to Chuck Lyford and the Bardahl boys if you like. They were all Super Stangs in their day. If you're only talking about Jeannie, Dago, Strega and Voodoo, you need a tighter definition than Super Stang in my opinion.
    Yeah,
    In the vernacular of the "Z", all this discussion about Clone1, Clone 2, and then Clone 3 came about after "Z" had passed. It wasn't until Jan posted that "Foxy Lady" even got correctly identified as a Burnstine project. Chuck Hall's Miss RJ was the beginning of the highly refined aerodynamic Mustangs, it grew into "The Roto Finish special, while on a parallel plane Miss Candace was being developed. First of the smaller profile coolant scoops. Then the clone wars started forcing "Z" to create "Clone This!" also know as Stiletto. (Another important escapee from the first set of answers.) The Roto Finish Special (Beat Greenameyer! Beat Shelton! Read the advertisement in Trade-A-Plane was the first racing Mustang to beat a Bearcat. Then that Mustang became the Red Baron.
    John Slack

  8. #18

    Default Re: Understanding the Super Stangs

    Quote Originally Posted by AAFO_WSagar View Post
    I was going to respond to Zac with a GOOD QUESTION but I'll just merge that response with this one..

    By afterthought edit.. Dontcha wish the Doctor, or Kerch.. Cornell.. could all chime in here.. the list is long!

    As Neal said, there are so many answers to that question that it boggles the mind!
    I was actually fortunate enough to have those very conversations with all three of them, plus Ralph Payne, and my Dad, because let me tell you nobody studied racing Mustangs like the guy that was trying to dominate them.

    Dave Allender's never raced Mustang (as modified) was the first to take the angle of incidence out of the wing. Later we did that Mod on Strega, and I did a slight redesign on the brackets for Stevo for Voodoo. I remember that Supe' Hoisington was talking about straightening out all the tail feathers on Miss Candace on one of the trips to Aero Sport I went on with my Dad back in the days.
    John Slack

  9. #19
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    Mar 2002
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    Default Re: Understanding the Super Stangs

    Quote Originally Posted by BellCobraIV View Post
    I remember that Supe' Hoisington was talking about straightening out all the tail feathers on Miss Candace on one of the trips to Aero Sport I went on with my Dad back in the days.
    That one is interesting! I'd never heard of this before Dago. So the idea wasn't new...

  10. #20
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    Default Re: Understanding the Super Stangs

    Guess you could go back to Anson Johnson's scoopless mustang in the post war Thompson also.

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