Understanding the Super Stangs

[Jan]

Re: Understanding the Super Stangs

I think the question needs to be asked, how do you define a "Super Stang"?

Going back to Sumthin' Else or Jeannie doesn't go far back enough in my mind. You can find Dwight Thorne, Jim Larsen, Jack Hovey and others involved in Gunther Balz' "Roto Finish Special" and Bob Love's "Oogahonk Special". Balz beat six-time winner "Conquest 1" with Richard Laidley at the controls in 72'. Was Roto Finish not a Super Stang?

And remember, Roto Finish became "The Red Baron" in 1974 with a cast including Mac McClain, Bruce Boland, Pete Law, Dave Zeuschel, Phil Greenberg, Bob Carr and others. Was The Red Baron not a Super Stang? Or we can go in reverse as before Balz had RFS it was Chuck Hall's "Miss RJ".

What about Ken Burnstine's Miss Foxy Lady - the airplane that became "Sumthin' Else"?

What about Cliff Cummins' "Miss Candace"?

We can go back to Chuck Lyford and the Bardahl boys if you like. They were all Super Stangs in their day. If you're only talking about Jeannie, Dago, Strega and Voodoo, you need a tighter definition than Super Stang in my opinion.

[BellCobraIV]

Re: Understanding the Super Stangs

I think the question needs to be asked, how do you define a "Super Stang"?

Going back to Sumthin' Else or Jeannie doesn't go far back enough in my mind. You can find Dwight Thorne, Jim Larsen, Jack Hovey and others involved in Gunther Balz' "Roto Finish Special" and Bob Love's "Oogahonk Special". Balz beat six-time winner "Conquest 1" with Richard Laidley at the controls in 72'. Was Roto Finish not a Super Stang?

And remember, Roto Finish became "The Red Baron" in 1974 with a cast including Mac McClain, Bruce Boland, Pete Law, Dave Zeuschel, Phil Greenberg, Bob Carr and others. Was The Red Baron not a Super Stang? Or we can go in reverse as before Balz had RFS it was Chuck Hall's "Miss RJ".

What about Ken Burnstine's Miss Foxy Lady - the airplane that became "Sumthin' Else"?

What about Cliff Cummins' "Miss Candace"?

We can go back to Chuck Lyford and the Bardahl boys if you like. They were all Super Stangs in their day. If you're only talking about Jeannie, Dago, Strega and Voodoo, you need a tighter definition than Super Stang in my opinion.

Yeah,
In the vernacular of the "Z", all this discussion about Clone1, Clone 2, and then Clone 3 came about after "Z" had passed. It wasn't until Jan posted that "Foxy Lady" even got correctly identified as a Burnstine project. Chuck Hall's Miss RJ was the beginning of the highly refined aerodynamic Mustangs, it grew into "The Roto Finish special, while on a parallel plane Miss Candace was being developed. First of the smaller profile coolant scoops. Then the clone wars started forcing "Z" to create "Clone This!" also know as Stiletto. (Another important escapee from the first set of answers.) The Roto Finish Special (Beat Greenameyer! Beat Shelton! Read the advertisement in Trade-A-Plane was the first racing Mustang to beat a Bearcat. Then that Mustang became the Red Baron.

[BellCobraIV]

Re: Understanding the Super Stangs

I was going to respond to Zac with a GOOD QUESTION but I'll just merge that response with this one..

By afterthought edit.. Dontcha wish the Doctor, or Kerch.. Cornell.. could all chime in here.. the list is long!

As Neal said, there are so many answers to that question that it boggles the mind!

I was actually fortunate enough to have those very conversations with all three of them, plus Ralph Payne, and my Dad, because let me tell you nobody studied racing Mustangs like the guy that was trying to dominate them.

Dave Allender's never raced Mustang (as modified) was the first to take the angle of incidence out of the wing. Later we did that Mod on Strega, and I did a slight redesign on the brackets for Stevo for Voodoo. I remember that Supe' Hoisington was talking about straightening out all the tail feathers on Miss Candace on one of the trips to Aero Sport I went on with my Dad back in the days.

[wingman]

Re: Understanding the Super Stangs

I remember that Supe' Hoisington was talking about straightening out all the tail feathers on Miss Candace on one of the trips to Aero Sport I went on with my Dad back in the days.

That one is interesting! I'd never heard of this before Dago. So the idea wasn't new...

[Leo]

Re: Understanding the Super Stangs

Guess you could go back to Anson Johnson's scoopless mustang in the post war Thompson also.

[BellCobraIV]

Re: Understanding the Super Stangs

Guess you could go back to Anson Johnson's scoopless mustang in the post war Thompson also.

Also The Beguine,

[CJAM427]

Re: Understanding the Super Stangs

I was actually fortunate enough to have those very conversations with all three of them, plus Ralph Payne, and my Dad, because let me tell you nobody studied racing Mustangs like the guy that was trying to dominate them.

Dave Allender's never raced Mustang (as modified) was the first to take the angle of incidence out of the wing. Later we did that Mod on Strega, and I did a slight redesign on the brackets for Stevo for Voodoo. I remember that Supe' Hoisington was talking about straightening out all the tail feathers on Miss Candace on one of the trips to Aero Sport I went on with my Dad back in the days.

So did Dago Red not have the tail and wing incidence mod?

[Lon Moer]

Re: Understanding the Super Stangs

Dave Allender's orange Race #19 is still my favorite racer, too bad it never did. I didn't know about the wing incidence change.

Another Super Stang still unmentioned was the original "Learstang" Vendetta.

[ZacYates]

Re: Understanding the Super Stangs

I think the question needs to be asked, how do you define a "Super Stang"?(...) If you're only talking about Jeannie, Dago, Strega and Voodoo, you need a tighter definition than Super Stang in my opinion.

As I said up front, I'm coming at this as a relative newbie compared to the knowledgeable folk who post more regularly and I was explicitly interested in Dago, Strega and Voodoo as they're more my era. That said,

Guess you could go back to Anson Johnson's scoopless mustang in the post war Thompson also.

I also have questions about N13Y and Stiletto, and Vendetta and MAII, and Red Baron, and I was planning a future post so we could dig into them, but really I was thinking about the three I mentioned above. I figured it would be better to focus on a tight group of (relative) contemporaries.

Don't get me wrong, it's all fascinating!

[BellCobraIV]

Re: Understanding the Super Stangs

Dave Allender's orange Race #19 is still my favorite racer, too bad it never did. I didn't know about the wing incidence change.

Another Super Stang still unmentioned was the original "Learstang" Vendetta.

While Vendetta might have looked really cool, however when the design was first being discussed as news was coming out of the "LearStang" Dave Cornell joked at lunch that "Maybe they put the Mustang wing on the Learjet." Carl Friend the man that found so many of the 3 to 5 knot modifications that made Rare Bear faster responded, "That would be one fast Learjet." So not really considered a SuperStang. I think that for this conversation we should only go with airplanes that showed results. Harsh yes, but otherwise we can go on and on about what if....

[BellCobraIV]

Re: Understanding the Super Stangs

So did Dago Red not have the tail and wing incidence mod?

Don't know about the tail incidence, but no on the wing incidence. At least I didn't make or design any parts for it.

[BellCobraIV]

Re: Understanding the Super Stangs

As I said up front, I'm coming at this as a relative newbie compared to the knowledgeable folk who post more regularly and I was explicitly interested in Dago, Strega and Voodoo as they're more my era. That said,


I also have questions about N13Y and Stiletto, and Vendetta and MAII, and Red Baron, and I was planning a future post so we could dig into them, but really I was thinking about the three I mentioned above. I figured it would be better to focus on a tight group of (relative) contemporaries.

Don't get me wrong, it's all fascinating!

So the postwar era Mustangs might not be necessary to discuss, the post 1964 aircraft all had an influence on contemporary development and to not include them might give you a smaller lunch to eat, but you'll be missing the essence of what you want..... really can't leave Anson Johnson and 13Y out of the conversation.

[Jan]

Re: Understanding the Super Stangs

So the postwar era Mustangs might not be necessary to discuss, the post 1964 aircraft all had an influence on contemporary development and to not include them might give you a smaller lunch to eat, but you'll be missing the essence of what you want..... really can't leave Anson Johnson and 13Y out of the conversation.

John's exactly right. If you're going to understand Dago, Strega, Voodoo, you've got to peel the onion. None of those racers would have come about - particularly in the way they did - without understanding what came before. They built on work that had been done as much as 15 years earlier.

And by what came before I mean not only the Super Stangs (or whatever you care to call them) but even more importantly the people. From Bruce and Pete and Dwight and Larsen to big Dave Z, Payne, Lyford, Love, Lacy, Loening, Greenberg, Maytag, Chuck Hall, Randy Scoville... the list goes on.

And yes, John is part of it too.

One more point to understand here that a few of you already grasp but many do not is this. Much of the foundation of modern air racing - the Reno era - comes from two camps that were there from the beginning. They've faded now unfortunately but air racing - particularly the Unlimited class - would not, could not have become what it did without the informal but fierce "after work" (and sometimes even while at work) rivalry that emerged between Lockheed and Boeing engineers.

They and some boat racing and drag racing interlopers drove the sport forward. Keep that in the back of your mind as a component of what's missing from Unlimited air racing today. A little bit of that kind of thing has emerged in the Sport Class which is good to see. But it would have to expand to mirror what we saw in the Unlimited class.

[BellCobraIV]

Re: Understanding the Super Stangs

John's exactly right. If you're going to understand Dago, Strega, Voodoo, you've got to peel the onion. None of those racers would have come about - particularly in the way they did - without understanding what came before. They built on work that had been done as much as 15 years earlier.

And by what came before I mean not only the Super Stangs (or whatever you care to call them) but even more importantly the people. From Bruce and Pete and Dwight and Larsen to big Dave Z, Payne, Lyford, Love, Lacy, Loening, Greenberg, Maytag, Chuck Hall, Randy Scoville... the list goes on.

And yes, John is part of it too.

One more point to understand here that a few of you already grasp but many do not is this. Much of the foundation of modern air racing - the Reno era - comes from two camps that were there from the beginning. They've faded now unfortunately but air racing - particularly the Unlimited class - would not, could not have become what it did without the informal but fierce "after work" (and sometimes even while at work) rivalry that emerged between Lockheed and Boeing engineers.

They and some boat racing and drag racing interlopers drove the sport forward. Keep that in the back of your mind as a component of what's missing from Unlimited air racing today. A little bit of that kind of thing has emerged in the Sport Class which is good to see. But it would have to expand to mirror what we saw in the Unlimited class.

The future of air racing in my opinion IS the Sport Class, the Sport Class supported by a competitive Formula 1 Class. This high dollar world of using fighters needs to evolve into custom built 480 mph plus aircraft not powered by museum pieces for engine systems.

Sorry don't have the answer to how.

[Big_Jim]

Re: Understanding the Super Stangs

Just for arguments sake, Zak's question was specifically about Voodoo/Strega/Dago, which he termed 'Super Stangs'. To me, at least, the discussion that Jan and John have taken back to 'pre-Jeannie' entries isn't answering the question.

The three "Jeannie clones" in question, Voodoo, Strega and Dago Red are the only Mustangs that have ventured into the rarified air of 480+ laps around the course, and those have only been recorded in the last 20 years....far faster and several degrees in advancement above any of the other racing Mustangs that have been brought up.

Now that is not to take anything away from 'where we came from and how we got here'...but if we have indeed seen the last of the days of the Unlimited Class as we once knew it, then those three are the only ones that should be 'in' the conversation of Super Mustangs.