Where to find historic non-Reno Unlimited race info?

[ZacYates]

Hi folks,
I'm doing some personal research into the Red Baron RB-51's racing history. I know she competed and won at Mojave and Miami but I can't for the life of me find any information online, whereas RARA's site has a very thorough bunch of documents freely available online.

Is there any online resource - or helpful forum member - where the 1974, 76, and 78 Mojave and 1979 Miami Homestead race data can be found?

[Lon Moer]

Re: Where to find historic non-Reno Unlimited race info?

This link has race results for other races after '88;
http://www.aerofiles.com/nar.html

[wingman]

Re: Where to find historic non-Reno Unlimited race info?

There's not much at all online Zac -- everybody thinks (or thought) that ANYTHING can be found on the internet but it is not so at all. The only way to access a lot of this stuff is to dig out all the old magazines and race programs from the boxes in the closet and start reading. This is difficult to do, though, if you live in New Zealand and haven't spent 40 years accumulating marginally useful paper like some of us Americans. If RARA and/or AAFO goes tits up and their archives disappear your problem will be far worse.

I'd like to see NAG digitize and make available all their past issues of the NAG Rag. Especially in the Sylvia Sweeney era they had phenomenal coverage of many of the Races you mention. This alone would solve much of your problem.

In the meantime good luck with your search.

Neal

[RAD2LTR]

Re: Where to find historic non-Reno Unlimited race info?

This might be a good start. Its a very cool book.

https://www.amazon.com/Gentlemen-History-National-Championship-Races/dp/B000YBXPB6/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=Gentleman%2C+you+have+a+race&qid=1633372538&sr=8-1

Will

[Shawn Aro]

Re: Where to find historic non-Reno Unlimited race info?

Gary Williams has a some books he has made you may try to check with him he sent me some

Shawn

[wingman]

Re: Where to find historic non-Reno Unlimited race info?

This might be a good start. Its a very cool book.

https://www.amazon.com/Gentlemen-History-National-Championship-Races/dp/B000YBXPB6/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=Gentleman%2C+you+have+a+race&qid=1633372538&sr=8-1

Will

It has a lot of great photos by a man close to my heart, too...

Neal

[wingman]

Re: Where to find historic non-Reno Unlimited race info?

For the Baron in particular I'd also start some threads here on AAFO for specific questions. Several AAFOers knew many of the actors in that program. If Brad's not too gloomy he's a fount of information -- some even accurate. He's a Mojave expert. Slack knew many of the players and was part of the action. Jan Tegler's Dad knew EVERYONE and even prominently did public relations for the team.There's actually even a fair bit here on AAFO. If you enter Red Baron in the search field at the top right of the page you'll get 13 pages of threads that at least mention the RB. Obviosly that's mostly chaff -- mentions of the racer in threads about other things -- but there are nuggets there. If you enter BellcobraIV in the search field you get all sorts of stuff money can't buy, including how the red RB once beat a faster purple RB before a Griffon was even considered...

Neal

[ZacYates]

Re: Where to find historic non-Reno Unlimited race info?

This link has race results for other races after '88;
http://www.aerofiles.com/nar.html

Thank you Lon, I'd found that site years ago but lost it. Bookmarked!

The only way to access a lot of this stuff is to dig out all the old magazines and race programs from the boxes in the closet and start reading. This is difficult to do, though, if you live in New Zealand and haven't spent 40 years accumulating marginally useful paper like some of us Americans.

To make things worse, I haven't even been around for 40 years! As a millennial it came as a surprise to find how difficult it's been to get some of this information from the comfort of my Kiwi home.

Gary Williams has a some books he has made you may try to check with him he sent me some

Shawn

Thanks Shawn, as it happened I woke up to an email from Gary today

[BellCobraIV]

Re: Where to find historic non-Reno Unlimited race info?

For the Baron in particular I'd also start some threads here on AAFO for specific questions. Several AAFOers knew many of the actors in that program. If Brad's not too gloomy he's a fount of information -- some even accurate. He's a Mojave expert. Slack knew many of the players and was part of the action. Jan Tegler's Dad knew EVERYONE and even prominently did public relations for the team.There's actually even a fair bit here on AAFO. If you enter Red Baron in the search field at the top right of the page you'll get 13 pages of threads that at least mention the RB. Obviosly that's mostly chaff -- mentions of the racer in threads about other things -- but there are nuggets there. If you enter BellcobraIV in the search field you get all sorts of stuff money can't buy, including how the red RB once beat a faster purple RB before a Griffon was even considered...

Neal

Once upon a time in a moment of extreme immaturity on my part completely sober, but really angry, I deleted a couple of hundred of great posts from this website around 2:00 one morning, I had posted. Much to my dismay I can not recreate the "lost posts" they required the contexts of the conversations that existed around them. At the time I was making those posts I could also call my Dad for details if questions came about I was unsure of.

Brad has access to the paper files from Air Race Management the group that ran the Mojave races.

One of the most interesting letters I ever read was Dave Zeuschel's original letter to Wiley Sanders regarding the airplane that became Jeannie. Wiley had inquired about Griffon engines and the airframe modifications that needed to be done. Dave went detail by detail about why that was ultimately not that good of an idea. Seems after building the Red Baron, Zeuschel had realized that there was more potential with the Merlin than the Griffon.

[AAFO_WSagar]

Re: Where to find historic non-Reno Unlimited race info?

John.. so good to see you here! My memory is F'ed up but I remember our conversations fondly! I'm so honored to have gotten to know your dad AND YOU!

Thanks for stopping by!

[wingman]

Re: Where to find historic non-Reno Unlimited race info?

John -- I sure hope that was after I printed out (on real paper - imagine that) dozens and dozens of Slack posts from over the years. I also have most of what you posted over the years on Scotty's site. You were often in very good form over there and I think Brad chimed in more too. Remember when I got you talking about what it was like early in your careers in the San Fernando Valley (" the gulch" )and dealing with the towering talents and towering egos of the time -- seemed like everybody hated everybody's guts and feuds were always popping out. A young guy working for one the parties never knew who was safe to talk to or about. Out of all that came Miss Candace, Jeannie, Stiletto, the Red Baron, 3700 rpm Merlins 4000 horsepower Wrights and on and on. How about the stories regarding a certain probably illegal overnight tow of a crippled Bearcat 100 miles through the desert back roads, over the mountains, through L A to VNY? Where are you going to get history like that?

I have a Slack stack an inch high as part of my Rare Bear files. I always loved your posts.

Neal

[Big_Jim]

Re: Where to find historic non-Reno Unlimited race info?

If Brad's not too gloomy he's a fount of information -- some even accurate. He's a Mojave expert.

Who are you calling gloomy? Wait...what? LOL

[Big_Jim]

Re: Where to find historic non-Reno Unlimited race info?

So here's a Red Baron story...not an RB-51 story, but a Red Baron story, as related to me by the late Bill Kerchenfaut.

To understand the dynamics of the Red Baron, first you need to remember that up until the point that the airplane was purchased by Ed Browning after Mojave '73, it was very much a 'Dwight Thorn production'. But once it became the Red Baron, Dave Zeuschel became the engine guy. Indeed, Dave was the one who was instrumental in converting the Red Baron into the RB-51 with the installation of the Griffon in 1975. (Also good to remember that Dave was ultimately 'pushed out' from the RB-51 program as it progressed, by none other than his own prot?g? and employee Randy Scoville, much to Z's chagrin).

Z's first round with the Red Baron was at Reno '74 and resulted in a severely blown Merlin and oil-covered DNF in the Championship race. A month later the Unlimiteds descended on Mojave for the 2nd annual California Air Classic. Armed with a new Zeuschel racing Merlin, Mac McClain qualified the Red Baron 3rd at a relatively sedate 390 mph (the Red Baron out-qualified by Howie Keefe and Miss America???). There was only a single 'heat race' (more of an exhibition) for the Unlimiteds on Friday, with the Consolation Race on Saturday and the Championship Race on Sunday, so the team set about to try to figure out why another engine had laid down on them.

Things were busy in the Red Baron pits on Friday and Saturday with a lot of work being done on the engine and a lot of glum faces.

Kerch picks it up...."So Sunday morning about 7:00 we (Sandberg's crew) are eating breakfast at Reno's Cafe in town, which was where all the crews ate in Mojave back in those days. Dave walks into Reno's with a couple of the Red Baron guys, looking very dejected. It was obvious they had been working all night and that they weren't at all happy with the situation. I caught Dave's eye and he just kind of looked at me and shrugged his shoulders in a resigned fashion. Right about then it sounded like a Mustang was flying right through the front door of Reno's. Mac buzzed the restaurant in the Red Baron at power line height, doing about 400 mph. There wasn't a head in that whole place that didn't duck when he went over us. I looked back over at Zeuschel and he let out a laugh as only Dave could. Right then I knew that they were going to be just fine."

That afternoon, of course, Mac beat out Lyle Shelton to win the race by staying in Lyle's blind spot and diving to win right at the finish line--the first win for the Red Baron team. And the last race for the Red Baron with the Merlin. (I've attached a photo from the late Ran Slaten collection of Mac at Mojave '74)

And if Bellcobra IV is reading this, maybe he can add the story of the 'rear-view mirror' trophy that resulted from that race.

[BellCobraIV]

Re: Where to find historic non-Reno Unlimited race info?

So here's a Red Baron story...not an RB-51 story, but a Red Baron story, as related to me by the late Bill Kerchenfaut.

To understand the dynamics of the Red Baron, first you need to remember that up until the point that the airplane was purchased by Ed Browning after Mojave '73, it was very much a 'Dwight Thorn production'. But once it became the Red Baron, Dave Zeuschel became the engine guy. Indeed, Dave was the one who was instrumental in converting the Red Baron into the RB-51 with the installation of the Griffon in 1975. (Also good to remember that Dave was ultimately 'pushed out' from the RB-51 program as it progressed, by none other than his own prot?g? and employee Randy Scoville, much to Z's chagrin).

Z's first round with the Red Baron was at Reno '74 and resulted in a severely blown Merlin and oil-covered DNF in the Championship race. A month later the Unlimiteds descended on Mojave for the 2nd annual California Air Classic. Armed with a new Zeuschel racing Merlin, Mac McClain qualified the Red Baron 3rd at a relatively sedate 390 mph (the Red Baron out-qualified by Howie Keefe and Miss America???). There was only a single 'heat race' (more of an exhibition) for the Unlimiteds on Friday, with the Consolation Race on Saturday and the Championship Race on Sunday, so the team set about to try to figure out why another engine had laid down on them.

Things were busy in the Red Baron pits on Friday and Saturday with a lot of work being done on the engine and a lot of glum faces.

Kerch picks it up...."So Sunday morning about 7:00 we (Sandberg's crew) are eating breakfast at Reno's Cafe in town, which was where all the crews ate in Mojave back in those days. Dave walks into Reno's with a couple of the Red Baron guys, looking very dejected. It was obvious they had been working all night and that they weren't at all happy with the situation. I caught Dave's eye and he just kind of looked at me and shrugged his shoulders in a resigned fashion. Right about then it sounded like a Mustang was flying right through the front door of Reno's. Mac buzzed the restaurant in the Red Baron at power line height, doing about 400 mph. There wasn't a head in that whole place that didn't duck when he went over us. I looked back over at Zeuschel and he let out a laugh as only Dave could. Right then I knew that they were going to be just fine."

That afternoon, of course, Mac beat out Lyle Shelton to win the race by staying in Lyle's blind spot and diving to win right at the finish line--the first win for the Red Baron team. And the last race for the Red Baron with the Merlin. (I've attached a photo from the late Ran Slaten collection of Mac at Mojave '74)

And if Bellcobra IV is reading this, maybe he can add the story of the 'rear-view mirror' trophy that resulted from that race.

Meanwhile, back in California City at the Lake Shore Inn where the U.S. Thrift team and several others were staying we had just settled down to Breakfast. Most of the Red Baron team and Ed Browning's family were eating Breakfast before heading out to a day of racing. Because of the long drive by car from California City to Mojave most of the crew guys were eating Breakfast together. We came to race and we're very dismayed at the sad tired faces of the Red Baron team. One of our team commented that it was a pity that the Red Baron team was out. Lyle's view was locked on the horizon just above the golf course outside the window. Before he could say anything The Red Baron buzzed straight off the golf course just above the hotel, shaking the building in it's wake. The Red Baron team cheered loudly. We clapped for the theatrics and congratulated the guys. Lyle just quietly continued to eat his breakfast. With one of his sly unassuming smiles he stood up, handed my Mom the check and walking by the Red Baron team said "I'll see you guys at the races." It was my morning to ride to Mojave with my Dad, not a word was said all the way to Mojave...but I knew he was already racing.


John

[BellCobraIV]

Re: Where to find historic non-Reno Unlimited race info?

What is this "rear-view mirror' trophy" of which you speak?