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Thread: Why isn't this talked about?!?

  1. #1
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    Default Why isn't this talked about?!?

    This past weekend was the French Valley Airshow in Murietta, CA. I did not attend, but have been reading up on some of the after thoughts and ran across this... http://wingsandrotors.org/phantom-f4/

    Wings and Rotors is based in Murietta and they're VERY close to the only other airworthy F-4 in civilian hands besides Collings Foundation... Why have I NEVER heard of this?!

    All of us West Coasters might be seeing this beauty fly around a lot more often than we could imagine. I am thoroughly impressed by what this small group has accomplished
    *My Air Race Site*

    Reno from '99 to '19

  2. #2

    Default Re: Why isn't this talked about?!?

    Quote Originally Posted by GRNDP51 View Post
    This past weekend was the French Valley Airshow in Murietta, CA. I did not attend, but have been reading up on some of the after thoughts and ran across this... http://wingsandrotors.org/phantom-f4/

    Wings and Rotors is based in Murietta and they're VERY close to the only other airworthy F-4 in civilian hands besides Collings Foundation... Why have I NEVER heard of this?!

    All of us West Coasters might be seeing this beauty fly around a lot more often than we could imagine. I am thoroughly impressed by what this small group has accomplished
    I would assume it is because it is fairly common knowledge. They have been very public with the project since it started probably 8 or 9 years ago. It's one of the first F-4's also, but had spar problems. Their goal is to get it airworthy, fly it once and put it on display last time I heard anything about it.

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Why isn't this talked about?!?

    I've always had an interest in how much fuel an engine consumes and where and how large the fuel tanks are so here are some of the facts.

    J79 turbine engines, the same engines in the F4 Phantom, a pair of them burned 20 gallons per second in full afterburner. So in one minute, the F4 could burn 1,200 gallons x $5/gallon = $6,000 of fuel in 1 minute.

    The J79 also powered the B58 Hustler 4 engines, A5 Vigilante 2 engines, F104 Starfighter 1 engine.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Electric_J79

    Does anyone know if you can keep the F4 in full afterburner for a full minute? Would you run out of gas. overheat the engines? Without external tanks, it looks like it had the fuel for full afterburner for a 1.5 minute flight, then you're out of gas.

    The F4 carried 1,994 gallons internal or a total of 3,335 gallons with three external tanks. 370 gallons tanks on the outer wing hardpoints and either a 600 gallon tank for the centerline station.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McDonn...F-4_Phantom_II
    Last edited by SkyvanDelta; 11-10-2015 at 03:15 PM.

  4. #4
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    Default Re: Why isn't this talked about?!?

    Skyan, can't answer your specific questions, but I once had an interesting conversation with a docent at Bob Pond's place in Palm Springs. He talked about his introduction to the F-104 (if I recall as part of a test pilot course). Said they had to take off, get to altitude, accelerate to Mach 2, and then land. Only problem was, by the time you got up to speed it was out of gas and you were facing a possible dead stick on the way back.

  5. #5
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    Default Re: Why isn't this talked about?!?

    Quote Originally Posted by ignomini View Post
    Skyan, can't answer your specific questions, but I once had an interesting conversation with a docent at Bob Pond's place in Palm Springs. He talked about his introduction to the F-104 (if I recall as part of a test pilot course). Said they had to take off, get to altitude, accelerate to Mach 2, and then land. Only problem was, by the time you got up to speed it was out of gas and you were facing a possible dead stick on the way back.
    Some facts about the F104 Starfighter and it's fuel tanks/range/consumption found here: http://www.airplanedriver.net/study/f104.htm

    Difficult to believe that each wing tip tank can hold 162 gallons which is 3-50 gallon drums of fuel. The wing tip tanks seem much smaller than that.

    The J79 in the F104 would burn 600 gallons of fuel in full afterburner. If you had a full internal load of fuel and wing tip tanks and kept 1,000 lbs/147 gallons of fuel for reserve that would give you less than 2 minutes in full afterburner. Can an F104 endure 2 minutes of full afterburner or is that exceeding the limits of the engine?

    "Starting with full internal and full wing tip fuel 7,956 lbs/1,136 gallons of usable fuel, the aircraft will go about 750 nautical miles." Who's the math word problem wizard here? When you divide these two facts, what do come up with?
    1,136 gallons divided by 750 miles = 1.5 ? Does this mean you get 1.5 miles per gallon of gas or 1.5 gallons of gas per mile?
    750 miles divided by 1,136 gallons = .66 ?

    Internal Fuel 5,746 lbs with and additional 1,000 lbs/147 gallons reserve which we won't count. 5,746 lbs divided by 6.8 pounds per gallon for jet fuel = 845 gallons + wing tip fuel tanks 2,210 lbs/324 gallons (1,105 lbs and 162 gallons per side) = 7,956 lbs divided by 6.8 pounds per gallon for jet fuel = 1,170 gallons of usable fuel.

    "Go Around - 200 to 300 lbs. fuel required." 29-44 gallons.

    "Cruise

    Altitude for maximum endurance is variable, depending on the weight of the aircraft. Consult the table below to get an idea of how long you can remain airborne.

    Weight Altitude Mach TAS Fuel Flow Time / 1,000 lbs.

    23,000 lbs. 25,000 ft .84 M 510 kts 3460 pph 17.5 min

    20,000 lbs. 28,000 ft .83 M 495 kts 3010 pph 20.4 min

    17,000 lbs. 32,000 ft .84 M 490 kts 2400 pph 24.3 min

    If you figure it takes about 1,000 lbs/147 gallons to get to altitude, and you land with 1,000 lbs. reserve, that leaves about 6,000 lbs/882 gallons of fuel to cruise with. Being on the realistic side, from takeoff to touchdown the time should be about 1.8 hours if you don’t experience delays or poor handling on departure or arrival."
    Last edited by SkyvanDelta; 11-10-2015 at 08:01 PM.

  6. #6
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    Default Re: Why isn't this talked about?!?

    The USS Hornet Aircraft Carrier Museum located at the former Naval Air Station Alameda has a F4 Phantom on its flight deck. It will probably never fly, but it's interesting to look at. I took some pictures of it years ago and will post them in this thread but cannot figure out how to do it. Can anyone help me out?

    You can see the F4 that is on the Hornet by clicking here. It's the gray/white unfinished looking F4, not the painted version:

    https://www.google.com/search?q=uss+...hantom&imgrc=_
    Last edited by SkyvanDelta; 11-10-2015 at 07:52 PM.

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