How many records stand because of the cost to attempt a new one?

[grampi]

I've often wondered if the reason many of today's aviation records stand, not because they're aren't any planes capable of breaking them, but rather because the cost of making these attempts is prohibitively high. With costs of setting a new record exceeding $1 million (that's not even counting the cost of preparing the aircraft), I think most, if not all of the pilots/owners don't want to pay the price, or they simple can't afford to. I realize it takes more than a couple guys with a stop watch and a pair of binoculars to measure and verify these record attempts, but do costs really need to be as high as they are? Why not streamline the process a bit so more attempts are made?

[supercub]

Re: How many records stand because of the cost to attempt a new one?

I would say cost $$$ is one of the major factors in breaking most records in motor sports..........especially when aircraft are involved.
Brian

[johnnyrace]

Re: How many records stand because of the cost to attempt a new one?

I've often wondered if the reason many of today's aviation records stand, not because they're aren't any planes capable of breaking them, but rather because the cost of making these attempts is prohibitively high. With costs of setting a new record exceeding $1 million (that's not even counting the cost of preparing the aircraft), I think most, if not all of the pilots/owners don't want to pay the price, or they simple can't afford to. I realize it takes more than a couple guys with a stop watch and a pair of binoculars to measure and verify these record attempts, but do costs really need to be as high as they are? Why not streamline the process a bit so more attempts are made?

Its costly, but far less expensive than $1 million to do.

[toldjaso]

Re: How many records stand because of the cost to attempt a new one?

Its costly, but far less expensive than $1 million to do.

That would kinda depend on what record you are talking about. I would not think you could even think about the 3k or 5k for less than a mil, and that's if you did not tear anything up. There is a lot more involved than most people would think, and the FAA won't allow it to be a spectator event.
Will W. or John Parker would know more about this, if they care to post about it.

[laminar]

Re: How many records stand because of the cost to attempt a new one?

I am not sure I am reading the question right, but here are my two cents.

I have been involved in 11 world record attempts. Point to point records cost about $500. All other records cost between 5 and 7 thousand dollars for the NAA to officiate the record.

That money goes to a lot of things but the biggest component is paying for the NAA representative to be on site. This includes the airfare and room and board.

You can see the cost breakdown here (https://naa.aero/userfiles/files/documents/Downloads/Fee%20Schedule-2014_01.pdf)

This was the motivation behind the record setting portion of the Mojave Experimental Flyin (link) back in april. By attempting records with 5 airplanes in one day you could share the cost of having the NAA official on site. It also creates an event that sponsors can get excited about being a part of. I think this is why the event was so successful.

I think there is a lot of cunfusion about how to set a record in an airplane and that lowers the competition. I know that the thing that gets me excited about a world record is the fact that you know that is the best that an airplane has ever done, not the best an airplane has ever done who's crew also had the resources to officiate a record.


What are you working on tonight?

Elliot Seguin
Wasabi Air Racing
Scaled Composites

[toldjaso]

Re: How many records stand because of the cost to attempt a new one?

I was thinking more in terms of someone trying to best the Bear's old record of 528mph.
For everyone who wonders why it is still standing after all this time, here are a few of the reasons.
To really get that kind of speed, you need to go to an airport that has a high field elevation to begin with, Reno is not suitable, for example. Twice as high as Reno would be ideal!
The 3k has a ceiling (AGL) that you have to stay under during the passes. You need to catch the temperature just right, which means you can only plan it for certain times of the year, and hope no forest fires (smoke) are in the area then. I think there is a two week window that you reserve, and no one else can try for the record while you have that time reserved?
Getting the necessary FAA waivers and permission to use the course, getting fuel and water (if you have a boil-off system) positioned at stopover airports, having to move the plane and equipment and personnel and get rooms, food, etc. For a plane like Strega or something like Rare Bear or a Dago Red or Precious Metal, the engines are very expensive, would not want to leave home without a spare engine and prop on a trip like this.
What I am saying is you can't beat the old Bear record from your home airport, and the logistics easily take a year or more of planning ahead.
I believe the FAA also stipulates that this record will not be attempted at an airshow type of event. I have seen some time-to climb or other records done at airshows. These did not involve multiple passes on a course close to the ground while pushing the airplane to it's limits.

[johnnyrace]

Re: How many records stand because of the cost to attempt a new one?

That would kinda depend on what record you are talking about. I would not think you could even think about the 3k or 5k for less than a mil, and that's if you did not tear anything up. There is a lot more involved than most people would think, and the FAA won't allow it to be a spectator event.
Will W. or John Parker would know more about this, if they care to post about it.

I was a member on Team Steadfast when we set 9 different speed (3k, 15k, 100k) and time to climb records in two classes with Steadfast in 2012...YES, I know some will poo poo some of the records due to the FAI having "retired some of the old records, but either way we still had to do the work , accommodate the FAI officials, and follow the procedures as well as having gone to three different locations for the records we set...It is NOT a million dollar effort unless you start including the price of the airplane or engines for the efforts...Grampi was using that figure in his posting after eliminating aircraft prep costs, his statement was "With costs of setting a new record exceeding $1 million (that's not even counting the cost of preparing the aircraft)"...I was just stating that though expensive, it's no where near the million dollar price point. If it was, Will would not have been able to put those efforts together.

[knot4u]

Re: How many records stand because of the cost to attempt a new one?

I was thinking more in terms of someone trying to best the Bear's old record of 528mph.
For everyone who wonders why it is still standing after all this time, here are a few of the reasons.
To really get that kind of speed, you need to go to an airport that has a high field elevation to begin with, Reno is not suitable, for example. Twice as high as Reno would be ideal!
The 3k has a ceiling (AGL) that you have to stay under during the passes. You need to catch the temperature just right, which means you can only plan it for certain times of the year, and hope no forest fires (smoke) are in the area then. I think there is a two week window that you reserve, and no one else can try for the record while you have that time reserved?
Getting the necessary FAA waivers and permission to use the course, getting fuel and water (if you have a boil-off system) positioned at stopover airports, having to move the plane and equipment and personnel and get rooms, food, etc. For a plane like Strega or something like Rare Bear or a Dago Red or Precious Metal, the engines are very expensive, would not want to leave home without a spare engine and prop on a trip like this.
What I am saying is you can't beat the old Bear record from your home airport, and the logistics easily take a year or more of planning ahead.
I believe the FAA also stipulates that this record will not be attempted at an airshow type of event. I have seen some time-to climb or other records done at airshows. These did not involve multiple passes on a course close to the ground while pushing the airplane to it's limits.

Lyle and his crew overcame all the difficulties you speak of, some had to leave to get back to work. If everything had gone as planned the record would be north of 545 from what I've been told. Lyle wanted it and he went and got it. Enough said.

[Skyracer]

Re: How many records stand because of the cost to attempt a new one?

All of them!

[grampi]

Re: How many records stand because of the cost to attempt a new one?

So, when someone is talking about the cost of a record attempt being over $million, or several $million, they are including the cost of getting the plane ready, and the non-plane expenses are just a small portion of that cost?

[Nemesis]

Re: How many records stand because of the cost to attempt a new one?

Hello All!!! Long time no write....Thought I’d come by to see what’s happening in Air Race land since we are a few weeks away from the roar of race planes. I saw the discussion of record setting, and as our friend Darryl “Greenie” would say “we have some experience with that”. The Nemesis team has set multiple records in both the “old” system, as well as the “new” system.
First the old. It required multiple people with co-ordinated stop watches generally 3 on each end of the course, with at least one data recorder person on each end of the course, 2 altitude monitors on each end of the course, an airborne “top of the window” monitor, a surveyor, plus the NAA/FAI officials. All of these people had to become NAA/FAI members, usually at the record applicant’s expense. Then the usual record sanction fees, and membership fees for the pilots.

Our first exposure to the “old system” was back before the turn of the century in 1993 in Oshkosh. We were invited to an event called the AeroShell Speed Dash. The top 5 finishers from Reno in 1992 were invited to attempt to set a 3km speed record in front of the AirVenture airshow crowd.* Since “Motor Motor” Jack Wells had continued to work his magic during the off season we decided that we needed more prop. Our crew chief Steve Hill and the prop maker for us and the F1 class, made a 68 inch pitch prop for the Speed Dash. Well, our team did set a class C-1a record of 277 mph @ 4500 RPM, 100 feet above the ground in +5/-3 g turbulence.* It was also the first time we had really pushed the aircraft with our new 4 into 1 exhaust system installed. It got so hot that paint was bubbling off the cowling and clogged one of the fuel vent lines.* The prop was turning 4500 rpm on a plane going 277 mph in turbulence with the engine turning on and off! That same prop was dubbed “Excalibur” and was the baseline prop from that day forward at Reno and elsewhere, it was and remains undefeated.

The participants were trying to break the C1a 3 km record held then by current Jet racer Phil Fogg. The logistics of that event were daunting to say the least starting with the surveyor laying out all 4 of the ‘“gate” locations on the grounds of Oshkosh. This occurred several weeks before AirVenture began. Also needed was fabrication of 4 fixtures that were used for the timing and and altitude gates. 2 timing gates were placed on the ends of air show runway 3 km apart. The 2 altitude gates were another 1 km out from each timing gate. One was just short of the Whitman Field main commercial runway, the other out in farmer John’s corn field, of which permission had to be given... another story...The corn was AWESOME by the way ....This event generated the now famous and scarce “Cow Poster” conceived by co-event coordinator and participant Bruce Bohannon in #89 Pushy Galore.


The other competitors were Jim Miller in #14 Pushy Cat, Tom Hauptman in “#44 Judy” , Troy Channing in #69 Miss Reno, and yours truly in the “little pinkie” #3 Nemesis. This was a monumental event right smack dab in the middle of the AirVenture Airshow in front of 10‘s of thousands of watchers. No pressure there.....This doesn’t even bring into account the logistics each team going from all corners of the country with equipment and crews etc to participate. This event was the first time a group of aviators gathered to break world speed records. With the multiple record applicants, strangely there was not the level of “pressure to perform” as we would later discover, since there were more around you to fail or succeed. The event was AWESOME and it was at Oshkosh!!!

Our next time with the “old system” was a Nemesis solo 3km record attempt again at AirVenture in Oshkosh a couple of years later. We were trying to raise the record the team set in ’93 of 277+++ MPH. This was a “little easier”, because “all we had to to due” was go out in the fields of Oshkosh to locate and dig up the old stakes to re-find the course, yea... a little easier..... Still remaining were the cast of thousands of support timers, altitude judges and airborne monitors timing and altitude stands and all. The “little pinkie” Nemesis Team was again successful at raising the C1a 3km record up with multiple attempts there in front of the 10’s of thousands watching every move, every course correction, every turbulence bounce, bounced landing. Adding to that I think it was Delmar Benjamin in the Gee Bee or someone like that idling at the end of runway waiting for us to get back on the ground to start the next part of the show, again no pressure there.....One other point of pressure, doing a solo attempt with all the above logistics, with the 10’s of thousands watching. The risk of failure in front of the Oshkosh faithful was immense! The team was never so nervous, I mean thousands of people watching every move, hoping to see history made... Naaaa no pressure....Perhaps the most pressure our team has ever faced solo in front of the masses. None of this addresses the interface with a well established airshow with it’s time constraints and narrow windows, with our flight times being dictated to us, in by no means optimal conditions. As usual, the afternoon winds and turbulence reared its head. That event is remembered as even rougher flights than the ones in 1993. Again the little 0-200 was screaming its guts out, 4500 or so RPM with the negative “g’ causing the engine to turn off and on. The record was boosted up to 283 MPH.

The final interface with the “old system” was at our home airport of the time Mojave. Once again we had the cast of thousands, timers, altitude monitors, airborne observers, timing and altitude stands, and crew. This time most everyone was able to at least sleep in there own beds. We didn’t have to transport the “cast of thousands” to Oshkosh. A side story. Patricia, the event coordinator, began the prep for the event in a meeting with then Mojave airport manager Dan Sabovich. The first topic of discussion was about waiver requirements with the airport and FAA. Dan responded with, and I can hear it today.... He said, “Well are you going to remain sub sonic”? Patricia responded with “Nemesis” is pretty fast, but I think we can talk the pilot into staying under the sound barrier”.....

This was a much smaller deal, but since we were going it alone, as the solo record applicant the pressure to perform was very very high perhaps nearing the Oshkosh solo record run. This stemmed from the fact that there was no one around to share failure or success. Nothing worse than falling on your face without the cover of others falling or succeeding around you to divert the attention. It was a different kind but still a highly pressure packed attempt and we were all alone succeed or fail. We had the interface with the airport and traffic issues to deal with but nothing like “Oshkosh”. We were able to take our shots at the optimum time and conditions. We also added to the C1a 3km attempt, with a second record attempt of the C1a 15-25 km. Our team succeeded in collecting the 15-25 km and upping our own 3km record to 290++MPH, both of which still stand! Speaking of still standing. Our hats are off the to The RARE BEAR team for committing all the resources, time, and effort for their 3km record done way back in New Mexico that still stands!!! Lyle and team done GOOD, Say hi to God for us!!!!!

The common opinion is that the 3km record format is the truest gauge of aircraft speed due to the tight requirements of the run of record being on the deck, with tight altitude and time constraints.

Onto the “new system”. The new system was the brian child and created by NAA/FAI representative Brian Utley. Brian’s “new system” is GPS based and deletes the need for the cast of thousands of timers, altitude monitors, surveyors, ad nauseam, and therefore makes a record attempt much much easier and less of a logistical issue. One guy, Brian, with his computer, airborne and ground GPS tracking systems, and a good map of the area, making the front end work what seems like billions times easier. Brian’s system is heaven sent!!!!!! Our tip of the hat to Brian, and thank you for your work and vision!

In 2008, our team went back to Oshkosh on the world stage with the “Pink Beast” NemesisNXT, to take a run at setting a new C1b 3 km record in front of the 10’s of thousands of AirVenture enthusiasts. Once again solo, no others around to “share” the visibility succeed or fail, and all the pressure that goes with it. We had 2 scheduled runs that year on 2 different days again with flight times squeezed into the airshow schedule, not in optimal time and definitely NOT the best conditions. The team plan for the first attempt was to use a conservative setup, without ADI, spray bars etc., and limited manifold pressure settings, in hopes to secure the record in our corner. It would result in a lame speed for the NXT of 356++ MPH LAME!!!!, done in the roughest of cross wind conditions, 20+ knots.The second attempt again in the middle of the AirVenture afternoon show activities the “beast” was loaded up and ready to tear the place up. The run was thwarted by a gear sequencing issue which turned the team’s attention from blasting for a record to getting the plane down intact with a gear issue. The team left with a LAME C1b record of 356++ MPH LAME!!!!, from a plane that had a Reno qual at 412++ MPH and was regularly clocked down the valley of speed in the 460’s. The 356++ LAME record was easily broken by Lee Behel in April at the Mojave flyin. Lee’s attempt was surrounded by a couple of hands full of other record applicants over the course of a week, making it an easier scenario for attempts. In the “new system” the attempt of record still requires the sanction fees, pilot, and NAA/FAI memberships etc. But gone are the cast of thousands, ad infinitum....

So the bottom line of this blather is that if one wants to set an aviation speed record, one will do it no matter what, and our hats are once again off to those who go for the record!!! It is much easier, with much much less work required to do a record in the “new system”. The cost is reduced, primarily due to the reduction of support people required. But still remaining is the massive amount of preparation by the team wanting to do a serious record attempt, and the cost of sanction fees etc. So yep easier, and cheaper but still significant.

With the easier system the NemesisNXT team will being going for new records in several weight categories, and several different lengths in the future. The record blasts will be attempted in a window of a week to 10 days at the site of choice, Moriarty New Mexico, so stay tuned.

In closing, and slightly off the topic at hand, is we would like to wish Elliott Seguin and the Wasabi F1 team the best of luck at the upcoming Reno races. Wasabi is carrying on the Nemesis Air Racing legacy in the F1 class so to speak. The F1 racer will be carried around the course using a wing originally designed by the NemesisNXT team and used the production NXT wing molds, including the NXT designed and developed hardware. The wing is most noted for its elliptical shape planform as seen on NXT’s. Elliot however fabricated the wing using his own selection of materials and processes. Also on Wasabi, the horizontal and elevators utilized a NXT designed kit molds, and hardware. This horizontal and the control surfaces were most likely fabricated by my wonderful wife Patricia. So we wish Wasabi the best of luck carrying the some portion of the Nemesis racing legacy onward in F1.

[Lockheed Bob]

Re: How many records stand because of the cost to attempt a new one?

Thanks Jon for the input. It really breaks it down for what an effort it is even with the "new" system. Thanks again for all the years of contributing to the science of air racing & record setting.

[Nemesis]

Re: How many records stand because of the cost to attempt a new one?

Lockheed Bob,
Thank you for the kind words. We have a wonderful team of people that have ridden and are riding the ride, making the pilot job easy. Patricia and I often think back to all the people that have helped us along way... We always refer to them as spokes of the wheel, it takes a lot of spokes to keep the wheel turning true, speaking of the cast of thousands.....

We are glad to have had a tiny bit of influence on the sport we all love. Even though I am done racing myself, don't be surprised to see the "Pink Beast" back out beating up the pylons in the future. Our team is cranking up as we speak for our record runs, and beyond. Thank you again for the kind words, and looking forward to seeing you all again SOON!!!!

Jon Patricia and all the team members of Nemesis Air Racing! GO PINK or go home......LOL!!!!