The Bear Cave Mystery and Intrigue

[CJAM427]

Re: The Bear Cave Mystery and Intrigue

Info From RARA site.
Unlimited race record. 2003, Gold Heat 2-A, Dago Red, Skip Holm, 507mph.

And Rare Bear's average was 492mph

[flyingjibus]

Re: The Bear Cave Mystery and Intrigue

Check the record books...RB has never broken the 500 MPH barrier at Reno...Dago and Strega have done it several times...

I dont need to. I was there every year. I know who is fastest and when they were the fastest . I also know that you refuse to take into account course length changes, qualifying speeds, FAI Records, the opinions of people who know way more than you and I put together, or anything that challenges the notion that Dago and Strega are the fastest airframes EVEARR! Ever hear of Voodoo? You never seem to mention that purple princess. It's pretty fast as well.

It's all in good fun Grampi, you beat this dying horse every pre season. It is my opinion that the modified F8F airframe is a faster thing than a super stang is when they have an engine to pull it. They have not had that engine for some time. But there was a period of time when the stangs did not have the engine they needed either. There was a time when people proclaimed that inline engines were no longer competitive at Reno.

To be the fastest a lot of things have to come together at the exactly right times. It is never a done deal, never a sure thing. The Strega/Kerch/Hinton super team had a very impressive string of great timing,luck and skill and as a result have appeared unbeatably dominant for the recent years.

But I promise you that the Bear has had that luck as well. I was there, I've seen it, and so has everyone else who doesn't have mustang shaped glasses on.

The current bear crew talked a lot of talk last year about where they were going to be this year. Let's see what happens. It's only a few months.

But in the meantime, stop with the "it's impossible for the Rare Bear to go faster than Strega" mantra, because it's just plain wrong.

[flyingjibus]

Re: The Bear Cave Mystery and Intrigue

And Rare Bear's average was 492mph

Which is over 500mph when you correct it for the current course length.

[boomtown]

Re: The Bear Cave Mystery and Intrigue

Which is over 500mph when you correct it for the current course length.

2003 had the adjusted course length already. With a 492mph Race average, there must have been a 500mph lap in there. Skip had a 512mph lap in that race to win the Thompson correct?

[flyingjibus]

Re: The Bear Cave Mystery and Intrigue

2003 had the adjusted course length already. With a 492mph Race average, there must have been a 500mph lap in there. Skip had a 512mph lap in that race to win the Thompson correct?

I think there have been 2 more adjustments since that one.

[Mluvara]

Re: The Bear Cave Mystery and Intrigue

This issue seems to never go away, no matter how many times it is brought up.

I have gone back and run all of the course speed numbers throughout the years. The farther you go back, the bigger the course was and the less G it had. Speed was not degraded as much due to G loading as it is now. Prior to 2003, RARA also used to calculate course speeds pylon to pylon, which meant the reported speeds were lower than actual (about 2%). Taking into account all of this, the fastest consistent races the Bear has run on the course are essentially in 1991 (long course, pylon to pylon distance) and 2003 (which includes the correction). To date, Dago has the highest recorded average race speed on the course for an entire race and no one has topped it. Period.

I think there have been 2 more adjustments since that one.

And those adjustments have only shortened the course and added G's. The 'ideal' flight path is still calculated in it.

Which is over 500mph when you correct it for the current course length.

Incorrect. It included the ideal course length.

A lot of this brings up the 3km record. The 3km record is a great feat, but we cannot directly compare it to the course speeds. In a straight line, Dago, Voodoo or Strega can achieve those speeds.

Michael

[grampi]

Re: The Bear Cave Mystery and Intrigue

But in the meantime, stop with the "it's impossible for the Rare Bear to go faster than Strega" mantra, because it's just plain wrong.

I'll believe it when I see it...talk about looking at it through RB shaped glasses...

[flyingjibus]

Re: The Bear Cave Mystery and Intrigue

This issue seems to never go away, no matter how many times it is brought up.

I have gone back and run all of the course speed numbers throughout the years. The farther you go back, the bigger the course was and the less G it had. Speed was not degraded as much due to G loading as it is now. Prior to 2003, RARA also used to calculate course speeds pylon to pylon, which meant the reported speeds were lower than actual (about 2%). Taking into account all of this, the fastest consistent races the Bear has run on the course are essentially in 1991 (long course, pylon to pylon distance) and 2003 (which includes the correction). To date, Dago has the highest recorded average race speed on the course for an entire race and no one has topped it. Period.



And those adjustments have only shortened the course and added G's. The 'ideal' flight path is still calculated in it.



Incorrect. It included the ideal course length.

A lot of this brings up the 3km record. The 3km record is a great feat, but we cannot directly compare it to the course speeds. In a straight line, Dago, Voodoo or Strega can achieve those speeds.

Michael

I agree with your science. I never said the super stangs were slow!

[badman]

Re: The Bear Cave Mystery and Intrigue

Besides Dago's 507mph race speed in 2003, I'm not aware of any racer breaking the 500mph mark at Reno either for an average race speed or for qualifying. Strega holds the qual record at 499mph. The Bear still holds the Championship race speed record I think at 482mph. I guess what I'm thinking is that Grampi's comment about all the superstangs going faster than 500mph and the Bear hasn't really isn't true - Dago is the only one, right? Unless you are considering actual speeds on individual laps or portions of laps, but I'd guess they've all been north of 500mph by that measurement?

[flyingjibus]

Re: The Bear Cave Mystery and Intrigue

I'll believe it when I see it...talk about looking at it through RB shaped glasses...

Go buy the Skyfire video's for these years. The Bear beat Dago or Strega or both in every one of them.

1988
1989
1990
1991
1994
2004


Im not saying the Bear is unbeatable. You are saying the Bear cannot beat them.

[grampi]

Re: The Bear Cave Mystery and Intrigue

Go buy the Skyfire video's for these years. The Bear beat Dago or Strega or both in every one of them.

1988
1989
1990
1991
1994
2004


Im not saying the Bear is unbeatable. You are saying the Bear cannot beat them.

I am saying that even if RB was able to once again run as fast as it has in the past, it still wouldn't be fast enough to beat the fastest Mustangs...and it hasn't run that fast in quite a few years now, so making it the dominant racer it once was is going to be a monumental task, if not impossible...

[Leo]

Re: The Bear Cave Mystery and Intrigue

Seems to me the fastest in any given year is the one that wins, no matter if it is Mustang, Sea Fury, Bearcat or Air Biscuit (and there have been years that AB almost could have won). I've seen all of them win multiple times over the years.
OK so Dago holds the record for that heat race in 2003. We were standing at the fence line as Dago went by, wide on the turn, very low and streaming spray bar. We got wet from the spray. As I remember, and born out by my video, Rare Bear was right there on his tail, so the speeds could not have been too different at times though the average may be slower.

I seem to recall an article in the early 70's in a magazine where they did a fly off. Which was better, Mustang or Bearcat? Been going on that long and I am sure before that!
Seems the only way to solve it will be to arm a couple and settle it at 10,000 feet.

[RichH]

Re: The Bear Cave Mystery and Intrigue

Besides Dago's 507mph race speed in 2003, I'm not aware of any racer breaking the 500mph mark at Reno either for an average race speed or for qualifying. Strega holds the qual record at 499mph.

Nope. With 2% adjustment prior to 2003, Strega only has the 4th fastest qualifying time:

1. Dago Red 507.743 (Skip Holm, 2002)
2. Rare Bear 501.091 (John Penney, 1996)
3. Dago Red 500.643 (David Price, 1996)
4. Strega 499.160 (Steve Hinton Jr, 2011)

[flyingjibus]

Re: The Bear Cave Mystery and Intrigue

I am saying that even if RB was able to once again run as fast as it has in the past, it still wouldn't be fast enough to beat the fastest Mustangs...and it hasn't run that fast in quite a few years now, so making it the dominant racer it once was is going to be a monumental task, if not impossible...

I'm not sure you understand how important an engine is to winning or even how it fits into this discussion at all.

[GRNDP51]

Re: The Bear Cave Mystery and Intrigue

I'm not sure you understand how important an engine is to winning or even how it fits into this discussion at all.

Not siding with anyone because I think it is quite an even match and if both RB and one of the Super Stangs are running perfect, no one is gonna be running away with the race. Don't forget this is only the second year that RB will not have cooling as an issue. Which year did RB qualify at like 490 but couldn't keep that up because cooling? That was pretty recent so put together cooling and the fresh new engine, RB is gonna be hard to mess with. I talked with Rod and he said that RB's recent engine has had so many tweaks by so many different people with so many different ideas that a fresh one was needed if they wanted to put out the power that should be put out. And that new engine will be this year gentleman... No RB has not beat a Super Stang recently, but it hasn't been in tip top shape like Strega and Voodoo have been either... 2 months fellas