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Thread: Isn't it about time Reno introduced an electric class

  1. #111

    Default Re: Isn't it about time Reno introduced an electric class

    And to take Wayne's post a step further, there were huge amounts of private and government prize money used to motivate people to pursue air racing. The only way racing is "profitable" is when it doubles as R&D for a commercial product or development for a military weapon. Look at how the Wedell Williams 44 morphed into the P-26 and look at how Formula E car racing is being used as a test bed for commercial electric vehicles. And then most famously the recent Ford V Ferrari movie is very clear that Ford was only interested in racing to sell more street cars. That's the business we work in and are fans of. Reno's current state is obvious when you realizes most of the current classes haven't fulfilled that role in years (or decades?) and that's why we have the current "purse problem".

    Electric power whether you hate the sound or not, is at the same stage as the 1930s. On the aero and structures side, we have the advantage of composites and knowing how to make a stable airplane so as to not repeat the Gee Bees and other unstable racers. And most importantly for the future of air racing, is there is a lot of money interested in making this work. And anything that helps one class, helps the others.

    I assure team Outlaw is working as fast as it can to give you all something to look at and over-analyze. I'm doing motor mount stress calculations, FEA, CFD, etc etc. so we are making progress, but we are going to be thorough. And thorough is boring. So bear with us, and we'll give you a good show when we are sure it's safe to do so.
    "young" Thomas

  2. #112
    Join Date
    Sep 2015
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    45

    Default Re: Isn't it about time Reno introduced an electric class

    Quote Originally Posted by AAFO_WSagar View Post
    Whatever the fastest aircraft of the era are, we should be racing them at RENO!
    Here's the problem with that:

    We already have a speed limit on the course. The jet class is coming up on it with aircraft that don't come anywhere near the fastest of this era. If they were to allow swept wings and afterburners, they'd be capable exceeding the speed limit with 50 year old machines. And this doesn't even account for the fact that we're probably not very far from unmanned aircraft that would be capable of running the course supersonic.

    Once the technology exceeds what the venue can support (or what the human pilot can support), it changes the nature of the sport. Instead of racing as fast as you can, it becomes an exercise in who can get the closest to the established limits without exceeding them.

    There's nothing wrong with this. Bracket racing in autos is hugely popular, but it doesn't do anything for me. I'm also not a big fan of Nascar. I'm pretty sure that Formula 1 (auto racing) tried for years to ban traction control technology, but eventually gave up, because they just couldn't prevent cheating because it was too easy to hide the technology. It probably made for some interesting drama, but it's just not what I am looking for with racing.

    I'm not sure that I could justify why I feel the way that I do. I have no problem with defining parameters like airframe powerplant design that must be met, but without any restrictions beyond the physical parameters. I love the sport class. But once you start artificially slowing things down with fuel flow restrictions and the like, then I start to lose interest. And that would inevitably happen with turbine or electric power plants.

    Frankly, I think that the sport class as it currently exists is the best thing that's happened to air racing at Reno in the entire time that I've been going.

    Where I do agree with one of the points of this thread, is that (unfortunately) there doesn't seem to be a lot of future in the current unlimited class. The equipment is just getting too rare and valuable for it to be viable.

  3. #113

    Default Re: Isn't it about time Reno introduced an electric class

    These motors might be suitable.

    https://newatlas.com/automotive/hype...d1c41-90223594

    The QFM-360-X motor is relatively small at 430 mm in diameter and about 180 mm long. It has a 1,340-hp (1,000-kW) output as a single unit, but is scaleable and modular so with a common shaft, could be built to deliver 13,400 hp (10,000 kW).

  4. #114

    Default Re: Isn't it about time Reno introduced an electric class

    Quote Originally Posted by wadeh View Post
    Here's the problem with that:

    We already have a speed limit on the course. The jet class is coming up on it with aircraft that don't come anywhere near the fastest of this era. If they were to allow swept wings and afterburners, they'd be capable exceeding the speed limit with 50 year old machines. And this doesn't even account for the fact that we're probably not very far from unmanned aircraft that would be capable of running the course supersonic.

    Once the technology exceeds what the venue can support (or what the human pilot can support), it changes the nature of the sport. Instead of racing as fast as you can, it becomes an exercise in who can get the closest to the established limits without exceeding them.

    There's nothing wrong with this. Bracket racing in autos is hugely popular, but it doesn't do anything for me. I'm also not a big fan of Nascar. I'm pretty sure that Formula 1 (auto racing) tried for years to ban traction control technology, but eventually gave up, because they just couldn't prevent cheating because it was too easy to hide the technology. It probably made for some interesting drama, but it's just not what I am looking for with racing.

    I'm not sure that I could justify why I feel the way that I do. I have no problem with defining parameters like airframe powerplant design that must be met, but without any restrictions beyond the physical parameters. I love the sport class. But once you start artificially slowing things down with fuel flow restrictions and the like, then I start to lose interest. And that would inevitably happen with turbine or electric power plants.

    Frankly, I think that the sport class as it currently exists is the best thing that's happened to air racing at Reno in the entire time that I've been going.

    Where I do agree with one of the points of this thread, is that (unfortunately) there doesn't seem to be a lot of future in the current unlimited class. The equipment is just getting too rare and valuable for it to be viable.
    I agree. As far as I can recall when I first found out and started helping the rules were piston power, propeller driven and the pilot had to have O2, that's why they call them Unlimiteds. I'm going to say something that makes me sad but I have to admit those days are over, I think about the Can-Am series and the parallels are obvious.
    Last edited by knot4u; 04-17-2020 at 08:28 PM.

  5. #115

    Default Re: Isn't it about time Reno introduced an electric class

    Yes, the days of $5000 Mustangs and $500 engines are long gone. WWII was 80 years ago. All the hardware and airframes are more rare and more expensive. If we wanted to fix this we would need to start WWIII and somehow get all countries to agree to only use IC engines in their aircraft.

    The key to keeping reno going for my generation and the next is finding something to fill the gap. You older folks who got to experience the good old days probably won't like it. RARA (and the world) is changing their marketing to the millenials as they become a larger percentage of the working and spending population.

    Now I've had people read this in the past and it turns into STOL vs unlimiteds fight. And that's not true. Because no one is saying get rid of the unlimiteds. This isn't an either or. We can and do have both. But as the class dwindles, RARA has to try something (anything) to fill the schedule and attract new fans.

    And that's where electric comes in. (Actually electric is independent to RARA but you get the idea). I assure you, to the team members, the ones that actually prepare the planes for the show, working on electric is the same as an unlimited. It's a new challenge, but the same level or preparation and dedication. And I'll go a step farther in saying the electric is bringing in an incredible list of new sponsors and team members that air racing has needed.
    Last edited by CubersWrist; 04-18-2020 at 05:02 AM.
    "young" Thomas

  6. #116

    Default Re: Isn't it about time Reno introduced an electric class

    https://newatlas.com/aircraft/microw...58VHvHQ5iY-_wE

    This is an interesting alternative to using propellers.
    "In efficiency terms, the propulsion force at 400 W and 1.45 cubic meters of air per hour was 11 Newtons, representing a conversion of power into thrust at a rate of 28 N/kW. Assuming linear extrapolation, the team speculated it could take a Tesla Model S battery capable of outputting 310 kW and turn that into something like an 8,500-N propulsive thrust force."

    "By means of comparison, the Airbus E-Fan electric airplane uses a pair of 30-kW electric ducted fans, which combine to produce 1,500 N of thrust. That would imply an efficiency of 25 N/kW, which is not quite as good as the first prototype assembled in this lab. The researchers say this thrust efficiency is already "comparable to those of commercial airplane jet engines."

  7. #117
    Join Date
    May 2015
    Location
    FINLAND
    Posts
    206

    Wink Re: Isn't it about time Reno introduced an electric class

    Quote Originally Posted by Colbourne View Post
    https://newatlas.com/aircraft/microw...58VHvHQ5iY-_wE

    This is an interesting alternative to using propellers.
    "In efficiency terms, the propulsion force at 400 W and 1.45 cubic meters of air per hour was 11 Newtons, representing a conversion of power into thrust at a rate of 28 N/kW. Assuming linear extrapolation, the team speculated it could take a Tesla Model S battery capable of outputting 310 kW and turn that into something like an 8,500-N propulsive thrust force."

    "By means of comparison, the Airbus E-Fan electric airplane uses a pair of 30-kW electric ducted fans, which combine to produce 1,500 N of thrust. That would imply an efficiency of 25 N/kW, which is not quite as good as the first prototype assembled in this lab. The researchers say this thrust efficiency is already "comparable to those of commercial airplane jet engines."

    I just want to inform you that I am designing an aeroplane again...electric...and it is pretty sporty. If tweaked it might do 200 mph.

  8. #118

    Default Re: Isn't it about time Reno introduced an electric class


  9. Default Re: Isn't it about time Reno introduced an electric class

    https://vimeo.com/rollsroyceplc/revi...529/546a83586b&server=www.vimeo.com&show_title=1&show_byline=1&show_portrait=0&color=&fullscreen=1" /> https://vimeo.com/rollsroyceplc/revi...529/546a83586b&server=www.vimeo.com&show_title=1&show_byline=1&show_portrait=0&color=&fullscreen=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" allowscriptaccess="always" width="425" height="350">
    "young" Thomas

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