Sea Fury & Cessna 210 mid air over San Pablo Bay

[tim]

Sea Fury is safe in Ione, 210 down in bay.

http://abclocal.go.com/kgo/story?section=news/local/east_bay&id=9518588

[Randy Haskin]

Re: Sea Fury & Cessna 210 mid air over San Pablo Bay

N4962U and N20SF

[Lockheed Bob]

Re: Sea Fury & Cessna 210 mid air over San Pablo Bay

N20SF is Sanders "Dreadnaught". The Buick. Hawker Sea Fury. Anymore info.

[Samuel]

Re: Sea Fury & Cessna 210 mid air over San Pablo Bay

Looks like they are still looking for the 210 http://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/articl...an-5433885.php

Not good. Don't the Sanders own a 210?

[Samuel]

Re: Sea Fury & Cessna 210 mid air over San Pablo Bay

Here is the 210 I was thinking of. Not sure if it is theirs or not.

[Wild Bill Kelso]

Re: Sea Fury & Cessna 210 mid air over San Pablo Bay

Let's keep this topic down to a dull roar please.

[M_Man]

Re: Sea Fury & Cessna 210 mid air over San Pablo Bay

KTVU Channel 2 in San Francisco reports the Cessna belongs to the Sanders, and that Dreadnaught was at the Pacific Coast Dream Machines Show at the Half Moon Bay Airport. They speculate that the Cessna was Dreadnaught's chase plane.

[Race#21]

Re: Sea Fury & Cessna 210 mid air over San Pablo Bay

Fight, flight, or freeze?

[Randy Haskin]

Re: Sea Fury & Cessna 210 mid air over San Pablo Bay

Anyone know the timeframe for the NTSB investigation and reports?

[Ken Adkins]

Re: Sea Fury & Cessna 210 mid air over San Pablo Bay

Article this morning stated that a preliminary report will be issued Friday.

http://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2014/04/29/divers-find-fuselage-of-plane-that-crashed-into-san-francisco-bay-after-midair-collision/

[Dudewanarace]

Re: Sea Fury & Cessna 210 mid air over San Pablo Bay

Article this morning stated that a preliminary report will be issued Friday.

http://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/201...air-collision/

Let me start by saying this isn't speculation about what happened. But, the above article got something wrong in my opinion.

"The overtaking plane — in this case, the Sea Fury — is responsible for maintaining separation"

I don't agree with that exactly. In a formation, the #1 rule for a wingman is don't hit the flight lead. What is important is when the lead transfers from one airplane to another. In that situation, there is a point where the lead becomes a wingman and is still in front. When we do this, the lead spots the wingman, makes the radio call, the wingman acknowledges and now becomes lead. At this point it is the new wingmans responsibility to remain clear even though he/she may still be in front. The wingman never takes their eyes off the new lead until the move is complete. So the overtaking aircraft can be flight lead, but the responsibility to keep clear falls on the wingman. At least that is how I do it with many of the guys I fly with..

Here is a good example of this I filmed last year flying with Jeff in a sweet Radial Rocket RG.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CvZg...utu.be&t=2m56s

That video in general is a bit odd because I was trying to get a lot of video of the Radial Rocket which meant I spent a lot of time flying looking backwards. 99% of the time, this doesn't happen. lol

[Randy Haskin]

Re: Sea Fury & Cessna 210 mid air over San Pablo Bay

What is important is when the lead transfers from one airplane to another. In that situation, there is a point where the lead becomes a wingman and is still in front.

IMHO, I think this is where FAST has it wrong. I don't have the FAST manual in front of me, but I've heard this method described to me more than once, so I'm assuming what you describe is their correct procedure.

In the USAF, the lead change ONLY takes place when the overtaking pilot passes the 3/9 line of the "old" flight lead. In other words, the lead change happens when the new flight lead is physically in line with/in front of the other aircraft.

That is a very deliberate procedure that ensures the wingman, responsible for deconfliction, is not ever out front of the lead.

A corollary is that a wingman should "break out" of the formation if he is in front of the 3/9 line of his lead...again, for safety of flight, because it is damn near impossible to fly close formation, judge closure and motion, while craning your neck to look behind your shoulder. That's just a dangerous position to be in.

So, when the lead change is given by visual signal (USAF signals, not FAST signals), the lead gives the "1 is now two" or "two has the lead" signal by moving his hand forward and aft in the canopy. The wingman pushes up the throttle, moving forward (and slightly away) from the fingertip position (and this movement is nonverbal acknowledgement that he heard the lead change command). When he is directly abreast the 3/9 line, he executes the visual signal to take the lead (an exaggerated forward head nod) and the role swap has taken place.

Even if the lead change takes place over the radio, it is a two-radio call, challenge and response procedure. There is an intent to give the lead, (ergo, "two, you have the lead on the right"), and then there is a response from the wingman where he actually takes the lead ("two has the lead on the right.). The wingman delays that call until he is physically taking the lead and in front of the 3/9 line.

[Dudewanarace]

Re: Sea Fury & Cessna 210 mid air over San Pablo Bay

Randy,
I went to look it up to see what the FAST manual officially says..

http://www.flyfast.org/sites/all/docs/FAST_FKG.pdf

2.8.6

You are correct, FAST does not have bearing lines that establish when the lead has officially changed, only when the signal is given and acknowledged. I like that idea of a 3/9 line, although I have never heard of that till now. Pretty cool!

[Pylon1_Mark]

Re: Sea Fury & Cessna 210 mid air over San Pablo Bay

prayers to the Sanders and all involved... this is heartbreaking news

[Randy Haskin]

Re: Sea Fury & Cessna 210 mid air over San Pablo Bay

Randy,
I went to look it up to see what the FAST manual officially says..

http://www.flyfast.org/sites/all/docs/FAST_FKG.pdf

2.8.6

You are correct, FAST does not have bearing lines that establish when the lead has officially changed, only when the signal is given and acknowledged. I like that idea of a 3/9 line, although I have never heard of that till now. Pretty cool!

Cool, thanks for looking that up.