Why did Strega's canopy break?

[Matt Jackson]

Re: Why did Strega's canopy break?

I agree Penny was not there. He however has more experience flying that aircraft than any one on the planet alive. I therefore consider his comment a very valid data point. John is a very credible source of Bear facts. He is of the opinion that the aircraft was diving during the test and therefore the data point is invalid. There had been no airframe mods to attribute the new found speed to since the last series of power points. Even Dave could not explain the incredible gain. There is also no footage as claimed of the actual high power test. The camera mysteriously malfunctioned during the final faze of the test. So it certainly could be considered an invalid data point. Throwing in the 2 G turn also makes it highly doubtful that those numbers were ever realized. Sorry to disagree with the "you were there comment". It makes no difference as you were certainly not in the plane to verify anything. Being part of the cheering section does not count. Even Dave would agree that he cannot validate the numbers. I mean no disrespect, but I find comments on John's credibility on Bear facts as an insult. I have seen the guy drug through the mud by people who have zero experience in flying and testing. I have seen John work on test programs before and the guy is incredible in his data gathering. I consider his piloting skills and evaluation skills the best out there. So to imply he does not know what he is talking about is all B.S especially coming from the unqualified. The simple fact is we will never know one way or the other what might have been. I will say however that don't count the Bear out yet. Nelson family and crew are the some of most talented fabricators and mechanics on the planet second to none. I would venture to guess that with a little engine work the H.P will be returned and the Bear will show back up with the front runners. I would also venture to guess that she will be making a record attempt as well. So lets not deal with pie in the sky here. Its good hype, but not confirmable by anyone.

[Sparrow]

Re: Why did Strega's canopy break?

I stand corrected. You are absolutely correct. The Ridgerunner went 477 and change and finished ahead of the Bear in the Sunday Gold. I was in Dreadnought and do remember the day clearly now after reviewing the race footage. I obviously was thinking of 2005. The Bear obviously was down on power or chose not to run very hard considering the speeds we have seen from her in the past. I am not to sure there were any 490 laps, but 478 is a pretty awesome number form the Ridge Runner considering the airframe mod comparisons to the leaders that day. Strega and Voodoo!! I was clearly in error. Danny ran like the wind that day!!! WOW

Thanks Matt, appreciate that. RR had substantial airframe mods that year. Being the tech guy you may recall them. The scoop, fairings, heat exchanger and etc. The only mod the RR didn't have was the turtle deck as compared to the others. The slow nosecase gears that we spoke of at Reno a couple weeks ago, that engine had them. SLOWER than a stock RR gear but not 383's. To that end, two of our timers, Eric Watt and Mike Luchessi had the airplane over 490 for the 1st 3 laps. As I recall, several fans who had been timing commented about the speed in the days after the race was over, that was the engine to go into Dago that year. Talk about "what could've been." The Bear crew was lamenting the fact as well, as I recall their hot laps were 489...., when we were ahead of them. John Penney also commented to Dan about it after the race. The airplane was, and did go that fast, and we flew it home Monday. It was one of those days that everything lined up just right and it did what it did. Kinda like the day Skip had the 507 average in Dago. As I recall the Bear was running 499's at that time.. It was just another one of those days.

Sparrow

[jetwaste]

Re: Why did Strega's canopy break?

Matt,

No one was driving but Skip. I hope you would agree that Skip can call out numbers at least as good as Penney and that Skip can test fly an aircraft at a minimum to John with valid information on post flight debriefing. Everything came together May 10th and 11th 2012. Everything that previously was done to the Bear that worked under other crews and the final modification made by Dave and support made a combination that validated what many had worked on for several years. You say Dave, Skip and all the crew that were there that day does not count because Penney says so? The Video was no mystery, just didn't get reset. Mistakes happen and when the video was viewed and found lacking the person responsible stepped up. Mistakes.....We all make them but it is just a simple fact of life that there are some that can't face it. Pride is a bitch. All pilots agreed "Don't change a thing". Don't be mistaken by the fact that a conversation is a handshake, some smack was put in your court about your sticking and program and previous endeavors. This is not by me but by the shaking of hands.

You can pull out your flag and call what you will on second opinions. I deal with facts, on the ground or in the air. Most people want a pedestal to be raised on by those that they feel have no concept of what is going on. That Pedestal is build by the mechanics, engineers and crew chiefs. Fact are facts. And the earth is more than 6,000 years old.

All the best to the new Bear crew and those involved. Safe racing and get a win.

[Matt Jackson]

Re: Why did Strega's canopy break?

I have reservations about the data. I also consider the qualified words of a long time crew member who just happened to be the pilot. I can't help everyone with their hard feelings nor do I care about them. Its funny how one goes from hero to zero in such a short time. Win and your the greatest pilot that has ever been. Lose or make a mistake and you don't know what you are talking about. Just an observation from one that knows that dynamic very well. My comments here are with mixed feelings however. I know and respect all the parties involved. I have been involved with Skip from his earliest racing days. Dave Cornell one of the smartest self taught engineers I know. On the other hand John Penny has the longest tenure as pilot with the Bear. I don't doubt his word for one second on the data. I witnessed first hand his incredible ability at flight test through his program with the ME-262 at Sanders aircraft just recently. His attention to detail is unparalleled and no one will change my opinion on that observation. John is a professional through and through as well as being a fine human being. I don't believe for one second his comments come from the emotion of jealousy because someone else flew the plane. Not for one second!!! So as said in the movie Jerry McGuire, show me the money or in this case the data. All the rest is just talk. My opinion of course for what its worth. I also have not given up on the Bear. I am sure the boys form Texas will have the old Bear back real soon. When she comes back I am sure it will be with a roar.

MJ

[toldjaso]

Re: Why did Strega's canopy break?

I have reservations about the data. I also consider the qualified words of a long time crew member who just happened to be the pilot. I can't help everyone with their hard feelings nor do I care about them. Its funny how one goes from hero to zero in such a short time. Win and your the greatest pilot that has ever been. Lose or make a mistake and you don't know what you are talking about. Just an observation from one that knows that dynamic very well. My comments here are with mixed feelings however. I know and respect all the parties involved. I have been involved with Skip from his earliest racing days. Dave Cornell one of the smartest self taught engineers I know. On the other hand John Penny has the longest tenure as pilot with the Bear. I don't doubt his word for one second on the data. I witnessed first hand his incredible ability at flight test through his program with the ME-262 at Sanders aircraft just recently. His attention to detail is unparalleled and no one will change my opinion on that observation. John is a professional through and through as well as being a fine human being. I don't believe for one second his comments come from the emotion of jealousy because someone else flew the plane. Not for one second!!! So as said in the movie Jerry McGuire, show me the money or in this case the data. All the rest is just talk. My opinion of course for what its worth. I also have not given up on the Bear. I am sure the boys form Texas will have the old Bear back real soon. When she comes back I am sure it will be with a roar.

MJ

So, Matt, you are bursting my bubble by telling me that MY personal hero, Skip Holm, is nothing but a liar who can't be trusted to call out the right numbers (even though up until the time the camera ran out of memory space, we had video that backed everything up), (including all the previous test flights)? Plus on-board telemetry?
I was with the project for some years and worked with three different pilots and two different engine builders, and 99% of that time was filled with frustration due to always being behind the eight ball, last-minute changes, on-going bitter disputes between owner/crew chief/crew/pilots/bean counters/oil cooler repair shops/extremely long lead times/the accident in 2011/and whoever else had an agenda.
The four most fun and satisfying days for me out of ALL were when this apparently much despised pilot named Skip was invited to come and test fly the plane (always due to un-availability of the regular pilots). Remember, a volunteer crew are sacrificing their time off, vacation time, whatever to come to Reno on advance notice to be there to work on the plane and get the test flights done.
When no pilot was available, it was a wasted opportunity. Remember, folks, the weather at Reno has very little decent flying weather between November and April each year. A few years ago, it was 24 below zero around Thanksgiving, with a foot of snow. Virtually no flights can be done in winter or even early spring, due to the climate.
As far as throwing someone under the bus goes, your fave pilot has the black belt in that martial art. Our current commander-in-chief could take lessons from the master.
What you see as bitterness from the old crew might just be frustration at the fact that the real truth to everything was buried, never to see the light of day.
Without going into a lot of details, with info that some people would still like to keep to themselves (racing tricks and speed secrets), the set up on the Bear was designed so that the pilot had to push it up to a point where a certain chain of events would occur, and the engine would start cooling itself back down, even though you were making more power. It was a threshold that had to be accelerated through smoothly and rapidly in order for this "miracle" to occur. Skip knew and understood this, made it happen, NO PROBLEMO.
If something was a little off, or you took too long pushing the power up or whatever, your report would be that the engine was running too hot. It takes a while to cool 3500 pounds of steel and aluminum back down, it will keep heating up even after you pull the power back off (I know you know all this, Matt, but some of the people tuned in here might find it interesting).
So, are we going to strip Skip of all his wins here at Reno, while we are at character assassination? I guess being a test pilot for the F-117 would not be quite as advanced as test flying some plastic pusher airplane, I see your point there.
As for the record for fastest lap here at Reno, I have heard a million times "they didn't time it right". My question is this: Were they not timing all the other planes the same way that day? As you stated above, I do not care if people like it or not, that 507 or whatever lap is stuck in the records, so suck on that.
Nothing you repeat or post here will change my feelings about Skip, he is STILL THE MAN as far as this gearhead is concerned.
And the Bear will never be what it once was. I will unfortunately be proved right on that one, too. toldjaso!

[Matt Jackson]

Re: Why did Strega's canopy break?

As usual the comments on this site always turn into a pissing match and name calling session. I never called anyone a liar. I just said I don't believe the data presented is validated in any way. Sorry to burst your bubble on some of the finest days you have ever had. The conversation can never and I mean never remain on point. That is the problem with the data presented on this site. A trained Monkey can push the throttle up and point the plane, trim the aircraft level. Data points are not racing. I'll easily agree and no one can say different that Skip is the greatest of the greats to run the course at Reno. What his flight in Dago has to do with this I don't know. I never doubted anything about his Dago flights as they were documented and entered into the record book. To imply that he is the only human on earth to run a test on an aircraft is simply silly talk. Also what does flying an F117 have to do with this conversation? Not emotional and caught up in the dream are we? Implying that Skip somehow went faster because he was flying on a test flight is absurd. You don't take a plane that has no modifications from the last test flight and magically have new faster data points. It just does not happen. I am sure that in the excitement of the moment Skip called those numbers. Was he level? what is this talk of of 2 G turn? Why would you be turning and taking numbers during your data point verification? In my conversation with him just the other night his description of events is a bit different then you or anyone else that day claims, which leads to my doubts to begin with. So go ahead and whine foul. The fact is all undocumented unproven claims are just that unproven. My suggestion is to get over it and move on with you life.

[Dialtapper]

Re: Why did Strega's canopy break?

I agree Penny was not there. He however has more experience flying that aircraft than any one on the planet alive. I therefore consider his comment a very valid data point. John is a very credible source of Bear facts. He is of the opinion that the aircraft was diving during the test and therefore the data point is invalid. There had been no airframe mods to attribute the new found speed to since the last series of power points. Even Dave could not explain the incredible gain. There is also no footage as claimed of the actual high power test. The camera mysteriously malfunctioned during the final faze of the test. So it certainly could be considered an invalid data point. Throwing in the 2 G turn also makes it highly doubtful that those numbers were ever realized. Sorry to disagree with the "you were there comment". It makes no difference as you were certainly not in the plane to verify anything. Being part of the cheering section does not count. Even Dave would agree that he cannot validate the numbers. I mean no disrespect, but I find comments on John's credibility on Bear facts as an insult. I have seen the guy drug through the mud by people who have zero experience in flying and testing. I have seen John work on test programs before and the guy is incredible in his data gathering. I consider his piloting skills and evaluation skills the best out there. So to imply he does not know what he is talking about is all B.S especially coming from the unqualified. The simple fact is we will never know one way or the other what might have been. I will say however that don't count the Bear out yet. Nelson family and crew are the some of most talented fabricators and mechanics on the planet second to none. I would venture to guess that with a little engine work the H.P will be returned and the Bear will show back up with the front runners. I would also venture to guess that she will be making a record attempt as well. So lets not deal with pie in the sky here. Its good hype, but not confirmable by anyone.

Let me try this one more time Matt.

We have first hand FACTS, from myself and others that were there, and your speculation based on someone else's speculation that wasn't there.

Mr. Holm is THE consummate Test Pilot. Regardless what the camera did or didn't record, Dave was constantly asking for parameters, Skip was responding, and they written down, etched in stone. They are recorded as facts, valid data, not speculation by someone that wasn't there. Can you understand the difference?

"Throwing in the 2 G turn also makes it highly doubtful that those numbers were ever realized."

The test flights were done in a 45 deg. bank because if they were not the plane would be over the Pacific or Mexico at those speeds.

"Even Dave would agree that he cannot validate the numbers."

He has validated the numbers. I can't repeat his response to this statement because this is a family web site, but it had to do with your lips on a certain part of his anatomy that apparently is rosy red.

You and I will just have to agree to disagree Matt, we live in two different wolds. You see someone that "has more experience flying that aircraft than any one on the planet alive" as your hero. I see him as someone that has been fired and replaced by two owners and has privately and publicly thrown his crew under the bus.


"It makes no difference as you were certainly not in the plane to verify anything."

Really? That is the most asinine statement I've ever heard. Neither were you or Penney. Those of us that were there, witnessing and recording the data can't verify anything, but you, who were not there, based on second hand info, from someone else that also was not there, is an expert. Give me a break.

[toldjaso]

Re: Why did Strega's canopy break?

As usual the comments on this site always turn into a pissing match and name calling session. I never called anyone a liar. I just said I don't believe the data presented is validated in any way. Sorry to burst your bubble on some of the finest days you have ever had. The conversation can never and I mean never remain on point. That is the problem with the data presented on this site. A trained Monkey can push the throttle up and point the plane, trim the aircraft level. Data points are not racing. I'll easily agree and no one can say different that Skip is the greatest of the greats to run the course at Reno. What his flight in Dago has to do with this I don't know. I never doubted anything about his Dago flights as they were documented and entered into the record book. To imply that he is the only human on earth to run a test on an aircraft is simply silly talk. Also what does flying an F117 have to do with this conversation? Not emotional and caught up in the dream are we? Implying that Skip somehow went faster because he was flying on a test flight is absurd. You don't take a plane that has no modifications from the last test flight and magically have new faster data points. It just does not happen. I am sure that in the excitement of the moment Skip called those numbers. Was he level? what is this talk of of 2 G turn? Why would you be turning and taking numbers during your data point verification? In my conversation with him just the other night his description of events is a bit different then you or anyone else that day claims, which leads to my doubts to begin with. So go ahead and whine foul. The fact is all undocumented unproven claims are just that unproven. My suggestion is to get over it and move on with you life.

There were MASSIVE modifications that needed to be tested.
O.K. Matt, I just got over it. I have been wrong sometimes, such as my prediction that VooDoo's engine would give it up, and you would finally get a win. Stevo just has not really ever had to fight very hard for the win, or so it would appear.
Maybe next year!
Good luck, Matt.
Out Here.

[Matt Jackson]

Re: Why did Strega's canopy break?

Ah emotion its a wonderful thing making people make irrevocable statements that cannot be confirmed no matter how bad they want it to be so. I will make a statement on this matter and say that the Bear will come back to form and exceed expectations of those thinking its all over. I am confident the Bear will once again break its own speed record officially with John Penny at the controls. To think that only one person or crew can make a plane go fast is perhaps the most asinine statement made so far. The plane is in the best mechanical shape its seen in decades. The engine was down seriously on HP this year and that will also be resolved. Verifiable data points indicate its as fast as it ever was on the same horsepower data points, so time will certainly tell and facts will come to bare/bear not just pie in the sky!!!!! John Penny and Stu will still be the pilots and all will be well. That's my prediction !!!!

[Volo Pro Veritas]

Re: Why did Strega's canopy break?

Mr. Jackson, allow me to give you an analogy to put things into perspective for you.

Let's say the two of us met out on the ramp at Reno. The canopy situation came up in our conversation, and I say casually, "Oh yeah, I heard you got into some rough air and hit your head on the canopy." Your response to me is the same as on this thread: "No, you can shut that rumor down right now. The air was smooth as silk, my helmet never touched the canopy."

We could just move on at that point, with me being enlightened to the facts of the situation by the person who was there and experienced the event, but I step out on a limb and take it a little further:

"Well, my friend who's an unlimited pilot (I won't use an actual name, since this is a hypothetical situation) told me that the air was rough and you hit your head on the canopy."

I imagine for a moment, you might be caught off guard by my response. You clearly just stated the facts, and you're the one who knows exactly what happened. Once your bewilderment at my disrespectful retort dwindled, you may say something to the effect of, "I don't really care what your pilot friend said. I just told you what happened."

Then, just as you thought I could not possibly say anything more arrogant or uninformed, I exceed your expectations: "Well, your account is completely unsubstantiated. Even you would have to admit you can't validate your own story - there's no video or anything. Besides, my friend's an expert in highly modified Mustangs, he has more time in P-51 racers than anyone else I know of. Why do you insist on ignoring his perspective and dragging him through the mud? Don't you know he's one of the best pilots ever?"

Basically, that's how you are sounding right now. I am speaking for myself only here, if any other ex-Rare Bear crew feels the same way, I'll let them speak for themselves: I don't appreciate people putting words in my mouth. Whenever this topic arises and I explain what happened, all too often people bring up how awesome of a pilot John is and how I'm just throwing him under bus.

I have never said John is not an amazingly talented pilot.

I am not on a crusade to tarnish John's reputation as a pilot or a person. To respond to your exact words, I am not trying to see to it that John is "drug through the mud" in this conversation. I have the utmost respect for John. All I am saying is that it is completely illogical to dismiss the first hand accounts of Skip Holm, Dave Cornell, and all the crew that was there at the time of those flights and instead give more credibility to John's "opinion" (again, your exact wording) that the plane was in a dive, and that everything the eyewitnesses said is B.S.*

Whether John is a great pilot, has more experience in the Bear than anyone else, or whatever awesome feats he has done in the past, is TOTALLY IRRELEVANT to this conversation. What does having experience in the Bear matter when he's saying the plane was in a dive during a flight he never saw? It makes no difference!

Mr. Jackson, if you want to be illogical, if you want to dismiss data gathered by Skip Holm, Dave Cornell, and others who were there, because for some reason their validation is not good enough for you and is less weighty to you than the opinion of someone who wasn't there, you're completely within your right to do so. Just don't put words in my mouth and read more into what I am saying than what is actually there. That's all I'm asking.

[knot4u]

Re: Why did Strega's canopy break?

Epic thread drift. I worked on the bear for a few years, during that time John, Lyle, Skip and Matt flew it. Was alot of hard work for no compensation (except when Moya Lear would hand a check to the top qualifier, Lyle gave that money to the crew). Lyle was the Dictator (He who owns the ball decides the game), John was always a consumate proffesional and a solid family man. Skip flew it to an air show in Paso Robles and was suprised when a 3/8" wrench floated out during his aerobatic routine, negative G much? Skip is probably one of the best pilots alive. Matt is an accomplished pilot and mechanic. I'm bummed that the airplane isn't able to at least able to run like it used to, much less improve. There was a time we could've improved that 3K, 491mph qualifying lap (down 400hp). Whatever, I'm gonna cook a chicken and potatoes and hang out with my wife and her dog.

[Big_Jim]

Re: Why did Strega's canopy break?

My apologies to all. Edited to keep the peace and for the betterment of the common good.

[FlyKidChris]

Re: Why did Strega's canopy break?

What I find most interesting about this thread...as an extension of the fun last summer... how long is this dead horse going to be beaten?

Thank you. I've been wondering the same thing. It's time to move forward.

[AAFO_WSagar]

Re: Why did Strega's canopy break?

What is it about this type of thread, it goes on between those who actually played the game, then, at some point, the opinions from the crowd start to be thrown in.

As a railbird, I'm asking other railbirds, stay out of this particular discussion.. and please, keep insulting terminology out of the discussions, wherever they might be...

back to my cave........

[knot4u]

Re: Why did Strega's canopy break?

I'd like to say, as a former crew member, that I do give a s*&%. Some people walk away and never look back. Others don't.
I wish the bear was still KVNY based, I'd work on it again if they gave me a chance, but only with a few select individuals that quit. Sucks to be me. Greg, Bill..... are you out there?