Time to climb

[Matt Jackson]

Re: Time to climb

Also your right stuff comment is a bit flawed. I have lunch with Bob Hoover all the time and he can also set you straight on the facts if you would like to hear first hand from the #1 right stuff guy, still alive. Also I recommend purchasing O'Learys book on Mustangs. It will enlighten you a bit on what the Mustang really did unless you don't think Chilton, Hoover or Welch were "Right Stuff guys". And for your information the average total time of your right stuff guys from WWII was less then a 1000 hours total time or less. I know of dozens now some 65 years later that have that much time turning base to final in a P51. So I think we have a few right stuff guys still flying these planes. Again In am sorry if you are offended, but that's a fact Jack!! Hope to see you make Reno so you can see first hand what these planes do so you can comment from first hand experience. Mustang wing has higher mach number then Bear Cat wing and can go faster on same horsepower. Bear Cat can however out climb any Mustang on earth and you can take that to the bank.

MJ

[J.A.W.]

Re: Time to climb

Matt, I do appreciate the feedback, & the fact that you so freely give us the benefit of your extensive experience..

& in general terms - you are of course absolutely right, a stock F8F will out-climb a stock `51D..

I don't think those official USAF documents are B.S. though..

If you could, please ask ol`Bob what Col`Boyd would make of 'fudged' figures in official USAF placards..
[& the power-to weight figures of a lightly loaded `51H do compute..]

All the best for success this year, & give `em heaps, as we say down-under..

Some of those factory test guys were kinda peeved that Hoover & his good buddy Yeager were doing 'their' job
for peanuts [USAF salary] -Wheaties claiming Mach 1- but I`ll make an exception for Slick, who went flying combat in Israel..

[Matt Jackson]

Re: Time to climb

If the bear Cat had been available for the early part of the war, the kill ratio would have been triple of what it was with the Mustang. The Mustang cannot hold a candle to a Bear Cat in a Dog fight because of its superior climb and turn performance. The Mustang is a legend because of its range and fire Power and speed especially in a dive. There is nothing better then a Mustang for long range bomber support. The procedure for a dog fight was slash and out run a guy if he gets on your tail, and so it goes. The Bear Cat has control harmony second to none. The Mustang becomes a truck at high speed. No comparison in handling qualities. Again sorry of this burst's your bubble on the Mustang. The Mustang happens to be my favorite mount and I have over 3000 hours in them as well as giving hundreds of hours of dual instruction in them. I can easily say with no reservation, they do not, cannot and will never out climb, or out turn a Bear Cat. Again Sorry if that pisses you off, but you heard it first right here on roller derby.

MJ

[Matt Jackson]

Re: Time to climb

Thanks for putting up with my comments on the Mustang verses the Bear Cat. I don't want to imply that the Air Force numbers were B.S if I implied that I stand corrected. The reality is the Bear Cat numbers would be far superior across the board under the same test perimeters. That should have been my point. Thanks for the kind words of support and I'll accept routing from down under anytime.

Matt J

[J.A.W.]

Re: Time to climb

Thanks Matt..

Sorry for being exasperating, like-wise..

My mothers uncle was a Tempest combat pilot,[Bob Spurdle] & he couldn't bring himself to fly light aviation post-war
- after so many hours fun hammering that big Sabre on max boost - at Govt. expense..

He had 550+ operational sorties logged - from the Battle of Britain - through the Soloman Is,[& shot down Zeros in a really slow climbing P-40] - to flying Tempests as Squadron leader [ 80 Sqd RAF] when they replaced the RAF's Mustangs in 122 Wing flying in the tactical air superiority role post-invasion in `44..

He reckoned he could toast a Mustang too, at the Tempest's best power height - no worries..

[J.A.W.]

Re: Time to climb

As an example of professional test flying, back in the day..

Here is a period test-report on the proto-type Hawker Fury - 'Handling Trials'- as the British termed it..

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/Fury/Fury_NX798_Handling.pdf

[Paynts]

Re: Time to climb

I know this isnt strictly about time to climb but ive got an excellent article written by Steven Grey in the Duxford Flying legends 2010 programme about a dog fight that he and Ray Hannah had years ago. Bearcat V Iraqi Sea Fury. grey in the 'Cat never managed to draw bead on the Fury dispite the near 2000ft per min climb advantage, due mainly to Ray Hannah's amazing flying skills. At the end of the article he points out the advantages and disadvantages of a Bearcat versus a Fury

[J.A.W.]

Re: Time to climb

Yeah, thanks man, & remember, that's only a lazy ol`radial-powered Fury..

.. the Sabre-Fury could pull the legs off them too..

[badman]

Re: Time to climb

If it were a climbing race yes it would. Again you are comparing apples to oranges. My point is the Mustang is not a better climb performer regardless of your numbers. Also, if you haven't noticed the fasted propeller aircraft in the world is Rare Bear a Grumman Bearcat and not a P51. In fact the P51 has never held the absolute speed record ever that I know of. After the Germans it was retaken by a Bear Cat. So what exactly is your point. I also certainly hope that the Mustang is faster this year as I will be racing Strega and want to win !!!! I have flown these aircraft and while I love the Mustang it does not climb worth a **** compared to a Bear Cat. Sorry if you cannot accept that.

Do you count the Red Baron as a Mustang? It held that same record from 1979-1989.

[Warbirds45]

Re: Time to climb

Thanks Matt, I will see you at Reno.
I was up at Santa Rosa when Will Whiteside set the time to climb, in Steadfast. CJ Stephens was telling about 20 folks the "Time to Climb" records of the F-15 up in North Dakota. She was airborne in 400' and 3 minutes and 28 seconds later the aircraft was at 98,000'+.
The BearCat ia a flat out BULLY. I wish the airplane would have entered service earlier. The Mustang was a Shark. Both aircraft will always be at the top of anyone's list of great airplanes!

Happy 50th, Enjoy Reno 2013 !!!!!!

[Box A35]

Re: Time to climb

I don't know if this breaks any records, but it is very cool to watch.

In HD.
Go full screen!

http://io9.com/5893615/absolutely-mindblowing-video-shot-from-the-space-shuttle-during-launch

[John]

Re: Time to climb

The Mustang happens to be my favorite mount and I have over 3000 hours in them as well as giving hundreds of hours of dual instruction in them. I can easily say with no reservation, they do not, cannot and will never out climb, or out turn a Bear Cat.

MJ

Interesting; since many of us out here are GA pilots and will probably never fly a Mustang, Bearcat or Seafury; and since the Bearcat and Seafury(per John Bradshaw's indication of the load balancing aileron trim tabs) have better handling, climb, and zoom climb characteristics, I'm curious as to why you would pick the Mustang as the favorite mount?

...the P-51 history and mystic perhaps?

[Matt Jackson]

Re: Time to climb

Do you count the Red Baron as a Mustang? It held that same record from 1979-1989.

Of course the Red Baron was a Mustang and I should have had listed that. In my zeal to discuss climb rates I failed that part of the discussion by not mentioning that fact. My point in the entire conversation was to point out that the climb rate of a Bear Cat was far superior to the Mustang as well as many of the propeller driven planes of that era. In regards to my favorite mount. Performance does not necessarily dictate terms on what might or might not be my favorite. If I was flying around doing air shows and just doing aerobatics, the Bear Cat would be my choice. The reality however is there is more then climb or handling that make an airplane a favorite choice. Cruise speed, range, comfort utility and looks play a big part of the equation. So for the reasons mentioned I select the Mustang as my favorite mount. That is not to say that the Mustang is the best performer, as it clearly is not. Hope that answers your questions. There is nothing sexier than a Mustang, it wins the best looking hands down. As everyone knows its not how you feel rather how you look that is most important.

MJ

[Matt Jackson]

Re: Time to climb

The Sea Fury is also a spectacular performer and is another better handling, climbing aircraft then the Mustang. It also can hold its own very well in a dog fight as the Sea Fury handles very similar to the Bear Cat.

MJ

[V1670]

Re: Time to climb

I don't know if this breaks any records, but it is very cool to watch.

In HD.
Go full screen!

http://io9.com/5893615/absolutely-mi...-during-launch

WOW!! That was one of the coolest videos!! That settles it: Time to Climb winner is (drum-roll please) Robert Gibson. You go Hoot; best of luck this year.

thx for the video......really nice.