Time to climb

[J.A.W.]

Re: Time to climb

Note I was referring to mil-spec govt. testing..
& racing/risking wrecking your own property is a different ball-game, naturally..

[kiwiracefan]

Re: Time to climb

Note I was referring to mil-spec govt. testing..
& racing/risking wrecking your own property is a different ball-game, naturally..

J.A.W, Matt was referring to all 3 airframes as stockers, as an experienced warbird stick in the Mustang, Fury and Bearcat he would know what was quickest, Any testing done have results that can be interpreted in any way shape or form, data can and is sliced, diced and packaged to fit the desired outcome of a test.
Yes he mentioned Lyle and the bear, and it was modified, but it still set and owns the record.

[J.A.W.]

Re: Time to climb

Really, that is something..
& it would be great to get some [1st-arse] knowledge of just how different/racy a `51H feels from a `51D..

Are any `51Hs flying at Reno this year?

& Kiwiracefan,
I'd reckon that Military Test pilots/Government procurement agencies might well beg to differ on your view of what constitutes a reliable/repeatable data set..

As would any official record scrutineers, surely..

[Tibia]

Re: Time to climb

...Mustang zoom climbs great after a head of steam, ...

You mean like Vodoo's unofficial time to climb record, before the energy bled off...

[knot4u]

Re: Time to climb

Really, that is something..
& it would be great to get some [1st-arse] knowledge of just how different/racy a `51H feels from a `51D..

Are any `51Hs flying at Reno this year?

& Kiwiracefan,
I'd reckon that Military Test pilots/Government procurement agencies might well beg to differ on your view of what constitutes a reliable/repeatable data set..

As would any official record scrutineers, surely..

J.A.W. Matt has flown Rare Bear, Furias and Strega, as well as many other stock airframes. I would suggest you put your reference material away and listen to someone with firsthand experience.

Edit: Forgot to add Voodoo and Mr. Awesome, possibly Dreadnought and Blind Mans Bluff (not sure about Dreadnought and Blind Mans Bluff).

[J.A.W.]

Re: Time to climb

That's great, & those highly modified racers must be quite a handful..

It is a given - that flight time aboard them is a rare & beautiful thing..

As for mil-spec stockers..
Well, the military acceptance service test standards -[ & not including 'manufacturers' figures]
- were established back in the day - when they were factory fresh..

The P-51H - was a factory hot-rod compared with a `51D, being a light-built airframe with 500 more hp..

Not nearly in the same category as a Strega for sure..
..but test-pilot proven to be line-ball performance-wise with the fastest U.S. R-2800 powered stockers, even so..

[Big_Jim]

Re: Time to climb

Are any `51Hs flying at Reno this year?

There are only two airworthy H-model's in the world. Both have raced. Mike Coutches ran his silver one in the 1970 Mojave 1000, and Bill Whittington ran his RAF-livery one in 1978 and 1983.

While both are still flying, it's a pretty safe bet none of them will turn a pylon again.

[J.A.W.]

Re: Time to climb

Thanks for the 'heads up' on that B-J..

USAF placard for F-51H..

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/mustang/F-51H_Mustang_CS_-_22_March_1949.pdf

[knot4u]

Re: Time to climb

There are only two airworthy H-model's in the world. Both have raced. Mike Coutches ran his silver one in the 1970 Mojave 1000, and Bill Whittington ran his RAF-livery one in 1978 and 1983.

While both are still flying, it's a pretty safe bet none of them will turn a pylon again.

I thought there was one at Reno in the early '90s, it groundlooped before going into Lemmon Valley I thought. Maybe David Price or the Whittingtons?

[Matt Jackson]

Re: Time to climb

That's great, & those highly modified racers must be quite a handful..

It is a given - that flight time aboard them is a rare & beautiful thing..

As for mil-spec stockers..
Well, the military acceptance service test standards -[ & not including 'manufacturers' figures]
- were established back in the day - when they were factory fresh..

The P-51H - was a factory hot-rod compared with a `51D, being a light-built airframe with 500 more hp..

Not nearly in the same category as a Strega for sure..
..but test-pilot proven to be line-ball performance-wise with the fastest U.S. R-2800 powered stockers, even so..

The reality is the H model was tested and max climb rate recorded was 3220 FPM at rated Military HP. The Bear Cat as I said has a bit more at 4570 FPM so I don't know where you get your info., but its a bit flawed. You can see the actual North American Data by looking under P51H climb performance on Google. It has a posted North American document that clearly shows the H is no where near the Bear Cat. Just is not so. Nice thought though. H is an awesome plane, but not nearly as great a performer as some have claimed. Michael O'Leary wrote an incredible book called Mustangs where all the North American test data is listed. There are no secrets, just a lot of misinformed people with stories of performance that was not there. The best climbing Mustangs were the Light weight models that were built to British standards. The H was an off-shoot but came no where near the light weight Mustang performance figures. So the H while a better performer as a stocker then the D is no where near the Stock Bear Cat. The Bear Cat also held the time to climb record from a standing start to 10,000 in 1946 and was only eclipsed by a jet. Rare Bear Hold the current time to climb and I don't see any H model records of note either.

[J.A.W.]

Re: Time to climb

Thanks for the feedback Matt..

.. I am assuming you've not hammered a `51H at 2,200hp on ADI/90in?

That USAF placard is kosher..

Here are the 'manufacturer' figures from N.A.A.

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/mustang/p-51h-na-8284-pg5.jpg

Note the light [7,500lbs] climb rate of ~6,750ft/min..

Also: the combat load climb tallies pretty well with the USAF placard figure..

Pretty sure the USAF wasn't interested [ same as the Brits/RAF] in doing any record setting with recip'

[Betty-Jo F-82 long range excepted] fighters when they wanted funding for an all turbo-jet combat force future..

[Big_Jim]

Re: Time to climb

I thought there was one at Reno in the early '90s, it groundlooped before going into Lemmon Valley I thought. Maybe David Price or the Whittingtons?

You're probably referring to 1988 when David Price's D-model went on it's nose in the overrun.

[Matt Jackson]

Re: Time to climb

Nor have you hammered a R2800 to 3500 HP in a bear Cat. As I said the Bear Cat out performs the P51 any model hands down. Period!!!!!! It has a better power to weight ratio and a far better wing for climbing. My point is P51H will not and cannot out perform a Bear Cat period??? So lets move on with reality. You obviously have not flown any fighter aircraft, but enjoy reading the B.S

[J.A.W.]

Re: Time to climb

Not to pull your chain Matt, & I fully respect your flight-time on all these fabulous planes..

..but I also respect the 'Right Stuff' test pilots who did it/charted it flying professionally - back in the day..

I doubt the USAF would issue those F-51 placards to their ANG pilots that were all B.S..

Will a Bearcat out perform every Mustang in the Gold Final this year?

[Matt Jackson]

Re: Time to climb

If it were a climbing race yes it would. Again you are comparing apples to oranges. My point is the Mustang is not a better climb performer regardless of your numbers. Also, if you haven't noticed the fasted propeller aircraft in the world is Rare Bear a Grumman Bearcat and not a P51. In fact the P51 has never held the absolute speed record ever that I know of. After the Germans it was retaken by a Bear Cat. So what exactly is your point. I also certainly hope that the Mustang is faster this year as I will be racing Strega and want to win !!!! I have flown these aircraft and while I love the Mustang it does not climb worth a **** compared to a Bear Cat. Sorry if you cannot accept that.