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  • Time to climb

    Just curious as to why the time to climb is always done from ground level to 10000 feet. We all know Rare Bear owns this record, but what if the climb was done from 20000 to 30000 feet...I would think a P-51 would do better in this contest as it performs much better at high altitudes than does the Bearcat...

  • #2
    Re: Time to climb

    FIA specifies record criteria.

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    • #3
      Re: Time to climb

      In timing a climb from one altitude to another, the fastest aircraft would have the advantage. No standing starts from 20,000 ft!

      GP

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      • #4
        Re: Time to climb

        Let the debate begin! As stated RARE BEAR owns the record for 0-10,000 ft. Also suggested, that the Mustang would probably fare better than the Bearcat from 20,000-30,000. dunno, are we talkin' stockers? Everybody knows RARE Bear is FAR from stock. So.....Strega vs. Rare Bear to 10,000? Strega vs Rare Bear 20,000-30,000 ft? That I/WE would love to see.
        I read an old Air Classics article regarding post-big one testing of combatants and it said from 0-10,000 was shared by the Hawker Tempest and Spitfire XIV with a BF-109G second and the Mustang third. Granted, these are all stockers and (for all I know) pre-Bearcat.
        Someone mentioned "drag racing": maybe a contest for Rare Bear/Strega/323 to 10,000? What say you? Wouldn't THAT be cool.
        Last edited by V1670; 08-23-2013, 10:54 AM.

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        • #5
          Re: Time to climb

          OK, I think 20k to 30k is a silly metric since its already been stated that the higher starting speed probably determines the outcome.

          But running with it anyway and say you somehow guarantee an agreed starting speed at 20k feet... Stock to stock, I'd SWAG that the Mustang probably wins because of its 2-stage two speed supercharger that was better than just about anything else without a turbocharger. Better wing, too.

          Race Mustang? Depends on whether the high blower speed is disabled or not. Aren't most of the "tube" motors built without the high speed hardware? I seem to recall that Dreadnought's 4360 only has low speed blower for more strength in the gear train at high RPM / low altitude, but I've honestly forgotten about the Merlins. I'd bet that a stocker would beat most of the racers, they're just not built for that task.

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          • #6
            Re: Time to climb

            What prompted this question was an artical in an Air Progress magazine (July '73 issue which I still have) that had a mock dogfight between a Mustang and a Bearcat. In the artical they stated that they were prohibited from going higher than 18000 feet because the Mustang had a marked edge in perfomance over the Bearcat at altitudes higher than 18000 feet. I have no doubt that any Mustang, regardless of how it's modified would not be able to compete with a Bearcat from sea level to 10000 feet...that's where the Bearcat excels, but above 18000, I believe the Mustang would be superior...

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            • #7
              Re: Time to climb

              Originally posted by V1670 View Post
              Someone mentioned "drag racing": maybe a contest for Rare Bear/Strega/323 to 10,000? What say you? Wouldn't THAT be cool.
              I doubt anything would touch Rare Bear in this race, but above 18000 feet I think it would be a different story....the Bearcat just wasn't made for high altitudes....
              Last edited by grampi; 08-23-2013, 11:47 AM.

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              • #8
                Re: Time to climb

                FYI, in reviewing FAI Records, it appears that Lyle Shelton's records have been "retired by changes of the sporting code" (see below for retired record information).

                C-1 Speed over a 3 km course, 850.24 km/h 1989-08-21 Lyle Shelton (USA), ratified - retired by changes of the sporting code - 8437

                C-1 Time to climb to a height of 3 000 m, 1 min 32 sec 1972-02-06 Lyle Shelton (USA), ratified - retired by changes of the sporting code - 8114

                Even with the FAI not recognizing these records anymore, I feel that fans of Aviation Records will still recognize the accomplishments of Lyle Shelton as the ultimate Aviation Records for internal combustion engine airplanes.

                At this time the Time to Climb record to 3000m for C-1d is held by Will Whiteside (Steadfast) at 2 min 03 sec

                This is for an propeller driven airplane with internal combustion engine.

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                • #9
                  Re: Time to climb

                  The record is measured that way because it has a real world application. Going from the ground to 10k is something that most every aircraft will do every time it flies (generalization, I know).

                  I can come up with 100 random things that certain aircraft will excel at and others will not. But every aircraft takes off from the ground and climbs to cruising altitude.

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                  • #10
                    Re: Time to climb

                    As long as the comparisons are equitable.. No catapult or JATO starts..

                    Wasn't that 1946 USN 'stocker' Bearcat time-to-climb 0-10,000ft stunt almost as quick as L.S./R.B.s?

                    Took off into a 40mph headwind or some-such..

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                    • #11
                      Re: Time to climb

                      This 'Blue Angels Bearcat' site gives the climb rate of a 'stocker' as 4570 ft/min.




                      This graph compares the climb rates of some contemporaries inc' P-51 [ B though, not H..].

                      Quickest climb rate being 'bout 1,000 ft/min quicker than the listed mil-spec F8F..

                      Last edited by J.A.W.; 08-23-2013, 04:08 PM.

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                      • #12
                        Re: Time to climb

                        This link provides a transcription of the USN F8F 0-10,000ft climb-stunt pilot's log, giving details..

                        Had to check the list, 85 total types/variants (49 different types including 36 variants of 16 of those types). He had no F2A time.


                        Had to have been a pumped up stripper..

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                        • #13
                          Re: Time to climb

                          P-51H climb chart.. On ADI/90in & 2,000+hp, line ball climb rate with F8F..

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                          • #14
                            Re: Time to climb

                            Originally posted by J.A.W. View Post
                            This 'Blue Angels Bearcat' site gives the climb rate of a 'stocker' as 4570 ft/min.




                            This graph compares the climb rates of some contemporaries inc' P-51 [ B though, not H..].

                            Quickest climb rate being 'bout 1,000 ft/min quicker than the listed mil-spec F8F..

                            http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.o...Climb_AFDS.jpg
                            Stock Bear Cat eats the ass off a Mustang in a climb at any altitude below 25,000. Don't care what the manufacturer claims. Mustang zoom climbs great after a head of steam, but doesn't hold a candle to a Bear Cat / Sea Fury period. Propeller planes have high rates of climb in thick cold air because the propeller is much more effective down low. A corsair with the big blower eats the ass of of most up high. So to climb ten thousand feet fast you start in the thickest air possible and let it rip. Lyle did that and Lyle owns the record. He did it with full length wings, 3350 with fast turning nose case skyraider prop End of story.

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                            • #15
                              Re: Time to climb

                              Originally posted by Matt Jackson View Post
                              Stock Bear Cat eats the ass off a Mustang in a climb at any altitude below 25,000. Don't care what the manufacturer claims. Mustang zoom climbs great after a head of steam, but doesn't hold a candle to a Bear Cat / Sea Fury period. Propeller planes have high rates of climb in thick cold air because the propeller is much more effective down low. A corsair with the big blower eats the ass of of most up high. So to climb ten thousand feet fast you start in the thickest air possible and let it rip. Lyle did that and Lyle owns the record. He did it with full length wings, 3350 with fast turning nose case skyraider prop End of story.
                              Thanks Matt, great to have someone who has actually strapped his arse into each airplane in the discussion on board..

                              Gonna be a great year!
                              Wayne Sagar
                              "Pusher of Electrons"

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