Setting the record straight

[toldjaso]

Re: Setting the record straight

Well, the attacks have become quite vicious, particularly from you Chris Farinha and you Chris Seelye. Sorry to see that. If it gives you satisfaction, yes it hurts. However, you and some others are barking up the wrong tree here.

I was called recently by one of our former crew chiefs and one of the engine mechanics both who have years of experience with the “Bear” motors. Both, after having some very colorful things to say about someone who’s no longer on the team reaffirmed that fat ADI and cold induction temps do not warp exhaust valves or valve seats. And as noted on my previous, one mechanic told me that in fact no exhaust valves had been warped. Both also said that valve seats are warped and displaced by excessive cylinder head temps. So, without going into extensive technical detail regarding the specific heat of one hundredth of an ounce of ADI vs the specific heat of the mass of an exhaust valve, suffice it to say that the point is moot.

And, you guys aren’t paying attention to history. Ever since the Shaw regulator (which worked really bitchin’), was replaced with the P&W unit, the induction temp has plunged to the 40s every time we have turned it on, even if the temp would settle down after a minute or so on the desired race temp. If you look at the Induction temp profiles on every race start starting in 2007, including Stew’s Sunday race, we should have warped exhaust valves on every one of those races. And Lordy, the exhaust valves should have been pretzels after the 2004 “snowstorm” race when with the ADI valve full closed, the induction temp was 40 degrees for the whole race!

Did I make a mistake in not going to the crew chief and asking “OK, based on the setting on the previous flight and the fact the mixture has been set leaner which will raise the dry induction temp even further, where should it be set?” Instead I relied on 27 years of experience in flying the plane and dialed a conservative setting to keep from blowing the motor up. It started out cooler than I expected, and it would have been dialed in but the CHTs got to redline first. But again, the point is moot.

Chris Farinha, how’s the N3N tail light that I bought for you working out? I’m glad I was able to get that for you when I did as ole’ Bill Duff passed away here recently and we can’t get any parts from the Duff stock as it’s all tied up in the estate.

Thank You for clarifying that.
Your third paragraph above explains why we had to change 9 cylinders on the 2009 B-29 engine due to exhaust valves leaking, before we gave up on that engine.
And we all just thought Ray's guy didn't know how to set up a cylinder.

[Mluvara]

Re: Setting the record straight

For the sake of reference, let me present 'Exhibit A' and 'Exhibit B' in the attached photo:

Exhibit A is a valve from a 3350. It weighs a sizeable 1.4lbs. It is surrounded by a mass of metal of various compositions (weighing much more) to make a cylinder, repeated 17 times and bolted to more chunks of metal that make up an entire 3350.

'Exhibit B' represents ADI fluid (a .24oz total mixture of methanol and water) in a 1oz sized measuring cup. The amount of fluid in the cup is .24oz (one quarter of an ounce), representing the amount of ADI that passes by the valve every second. To come up with this value, I looked up some old ADI consumption rates from when I crewed on September Fury in the Mike Brown era and rounded it up to a hefty value of 2 gallons per minute, or 120 gal/hr. This equates to 4.2oz/sec of ADI injected into the blower per second. Divide this by 18 cylinders and you get .24oz/cylinder.

Old values floating around the internet say that Rare Bear burns 600gal/hr at race power. Let's just back that off a bit for the sake of being conservative and say 400 gal/hr at reduced power. 400 gal/hr x 128 oz/gal=51,200oz/hr. Divide by 60 to get minutes and we have 853.33 oz/min (6.66 gal/min), which is 14.22 oz/second of fuel regulated through the carburetor at power. Divide by 18 cylinders and you have .8oz/cylinder fuel per second.

'Exhibit B' (ADI) is injected at the rate of 4.2 oz/sec fairly far away from 'Exhibit A' (the valve) in the blower section of a 3350. It is chopped up, whirled around at a high velocity, mixing with the fuel (14.22 oz) and hot air exiting the blower, bringing the temperature of the air exiting the blower down. It is then (hopefully), evenly divided up amongst the 18 cylinders on the 3350 resulting in approximately .24 oz/second per cylinder. (2 gals=256 oz, divided by 60 seconds = 4.27oz per second. 4.27oz divided by 18 cylinders = .24 oz per second per valve).

At this point, the remaining mass of combined air, .24 oz of ADI, and fuel mixture (.8oz) in the form of vapor travels down their respective 18 intake tubes towards the destination cylinder of its choice, passing by a valve and entering the combustion chamber. In this hostile environment (combustion chamber + 400deg F cylinder), the air/fuel mixture, spark plugs/ignition and changing cylinder pressure results in an explosion, which sends the piston back on its down stroke and exhaust gas exiting the exhaust valve at much above the boiling/vaporization state of water and methanol.

Thus, we have a total of about 1.04 oz of fluid (more than likely vapor) entering each cylinder every second, of which .24 oz is ADI fluid and .8oz is fuel.

Heat is generated from power, which comes from a fuel source. Without fuel, there is no f ire, thus no heat (other than friction of metal to metal contact).

One is free to change the values and ratios to suit their desires, but I believe this to be fairly reasonable and factual to use in consideration.

To me, the ADI does not look like a stream of water pointed at the intake and exhaust valves.

Michael

[ChrisMX105]

Re: Setting the record straight

Engines of any kind are meant to be ran under certain parameters. Whether it be CHT, oil pressure or temp, rpm etc. When this engine was ran way outside of parameters for an extended period of time (90 seconds) the valve seats warped.
For those who keep saying it was a CHT issue it is clearly stated in the manuals that 500f for 30 minutes is acceptable and that is with a significant safety margin in time and temp.

[jetwaste]

Re: Setting the record straight

Did I make a mistake in not going to the crew chief and asking “OK, based on the setting on the previous flight and the fact the mixture has been set leaner which will raise the dry induction temp even further, where should it be set?” Instead I relied on 27 years of experience in flying the plane and dialed a conservative setting to keep from blowing the motor up. It started out cooler than I expected, and it would have been dialed in but the CHTs got to redline first. But again, the point is moot.

This was not the same engine you had been racing for 27 years, as you know. This was not an Aircraft Cylinder Engine. Isn't it the engineer’s job to write the book and the pilot’s job to read it and ask questions?

I truly wish you had called, emailed or sent a telegram to the crew. Any contact could have cut down the time frame to less than 9 months. Your Posts, I believe, are even more damaging than what occurred on that day. I cannot see your gain from all of this and when questions are asked you think that you are being attacked? Did you think that no one would have any questions from your post? Could there have been a better way of dealing with these issues you have?

John, it is regretful that you feel you could not communicate with the crew in any other forum than here.

“Setting the Record Straight”

[Dialtapper]

Re: Setting the record straight

Well, the attacks have become quite vicious, particularly from you Chris Farinha and you Chris Seelye. Sorry to see that. If it gives you satisfaction, yes it hurts. However, you and some others are barking up the wrong tree here.

Did I make a mistake in not going to the crew chief and asking “OK, based on the setting on the previous flight and the fact the mixture has been set leaner which will raise the dry induction temp even further, where should it be set?” Instead I relied on 27 years of experience in flying the plane and dialed a conservative setting to keep from blowing the motor up. It started out cooler than I expected, and it would have been dialed in but the CHTs got to redline first. But again, the point is moot.

Chris Farinha, how’s the N3N tail light that I bought for you working out? I’m glad I was able to get that for you when I did as ole’ Bill Duff passed away here recently and we can’t get any parts from the Duff stock as it’s all tied up in the estate.

"Well, the attacks have become quite vicious,......"

Vicious attacks, really? You you come out of nowhere 9 months after the fact, publicly throw highly respected people under the bus, and when everyone on the crew questions your fairy tale we're vicious?

"Did I make a mistake in not going to the crew chief and asking “OK, based on the setting on the previous flight and the fact the mixture has been set leaner which will raise the dry induction temp even further, where should it be set?” Instead I relied on 27 years of experience in flying the plane and dialed a conservative setting to keep from blowing the motor up. It started out cooler than I expected, and it would have been dialed in but the CHTs got to redline first. But again, the point is moot."

No John, now we can all understand how this happened. This ADI system is not the one you have been using for the last 27 years. You where told that, but in your wisdom, "that's the way I've always done it" lead to this mess. You got explicit pref-light briefings from the designer/builder, but you know better, because always done it another way.

"Chris Farinha, how’s the N3N tail light that I bought for you working out? I’m glad I was able to get that for you when I did as ole’ Bill Duff passed away here recently and we can’t get any parts from the Duff stock as it’s all tied up in the estate."

Really John, the tail light for my airplane? I thanked you, and paid you for it. My condolences to the Duff family.

I don't know what you hope to accomplish with stunt, but this can't possibly be it. Did you think the entire crew would stay silent, no one would tell the emperor he has no clothes?

This is truly sad.

["Bear" Driver]

Re: Setting the record straight

Wow Chris. It was truly intended to be a humorous emulation of your own disarming style of which I’ve been the recipient of and we both laughed off in earlier times. Serious miscalculation. Sorry to offend. Edited out.

But you guys are still barking up the wrong tree.

Every engine builder/expert Stew and I have talked to say the issue is not cold induction or fat ADI. They all have said that excessive CHTs cause the displacement of the valve seats, which as told to me by one of the mechanics was the problem that had to be fixed.

I repeat, the 2004 race was at 40 deg induction for 10 minutes with no damage to the engine.

The 2005 race was at 50 degrees for 10 minutes with no damage to the engine.

Every time Stew and I turned on the ADI coming down the chute, it plunged to around 40 degrees for a minute or more before settling in on the desired range. Look at 2007 and 2012. And Stew and I have both once been late in turning off the ADI, (this is not the Shaw regulator), temps plunged and the engine stumbled. We both reported it to the crew chief. No damage.

Stew and I, a former crew chief and one of our best former engine mechanics are in complete agreement. This engine was damaged by excessive CHT. To date the engine overheating problem has not been fixed.

[ChrisMX105]

Re: Setting the record straight

"I repeat, the 2004 race was at 40 deg induction for 10 minutes with no damage to the engine.

The 2005 race was at 50 degrees for 10 minutes with no damage to the engine."

Were both races run at 36" and 2600 turns?

[Golem]

Re: Setting the record straight

Now, what'd I say about keeping outside opinions out of this?

This is their thread, the crew and pilot I mean... You are creating a stir with your opinion and I can see no benefit to it.. further comments by you in this thread will be deleted...

I know this is your forum, Wayne, but what's wrong with outside opinions? Aren't you over-moderating just a tad?

[AAFO_WSagar]

Re: Setting the record straight

I know this is your forum, Wayne, but what's wrong with outside opinions? Aren't you over-moderating just a tad?

No....

[ChrisMX105]

Re: Setting the record straight

John,
As I am reading through the things that you have said that are scattered through these 7 pages of posts I can’t help but ask the following questions:

1. What is your intention with all of this? Do you feel that slandering a multitude of people who are at the pinnacle of their field would somehow accomplish something? Do you think that by pointing the finger at everyone but yourself and refusing to accept responsibility it will make it all better?

2. Throughout your time as pilot you sang praises of the Crew Chief & Engine Builder, The Crew and anyone associated with the project. Now because of a mistake on your part you have gone out and “found” a plethora of people that are all saying that none of us know what we are talking about. Which is correct? We either know or we don’t.

3. You were more than happy to put faith in our collective efforts and claim the glory, fame, and rewards that were built by a group of individuals who made Rare Bear a labor of love. Then when a mistake was made by you (No one has ever insinuated that it was intentional, malicious, or planned) you immediately turned and threw us collectively under the proverbial bus. To save what? Your reputation? You already had that. If you had said “I screwed up” We would have been bummed, slept on it, and to a man as we did anyway would have jumped in and fixed the problem, learned from it and moved forward. Instead we were faced at every turn with someone who did everything they could to make the process as difficult as possible.

The damage was done on your watch, there is video proof of it. The damage was repaired. It set the race program back 3 months, Killed our 3k attempt and prevented us from fielding a well tested racer in 2012, instead we were faced playing catch-up and doing flight tests during race week.

Your job was to follow instructions, fly the airplane, and provide us with the information needed to make it faster.
You failed (Again not intentionally, maliciously, or was it ever thought to have been planned)

A simple “I screwed up, I’m sorry” Would have made you the bigger man, earned a ton of respect, and not changed the end result other than the amount of effort you have expended dragging some amazing people through the mud.

I also can’t help but wonder, If you have all of this information collected from various parties proving that we are wrong why not gather it together and present it to Dave? Or at the very least present hard data other than “Somebody’s 2nd cousin who knew a guy from the war that saw an airplane fly once said” I know Dave is always open to new ideas and information and willing to listen and learn any time something is presented that will improve reliability and/or performance. Coming to a public forum and throwing **** against the proverbial wall with no purpose other than making yourself feel vilified is neither productive nor endearing to anyone.

[Sailing South]

Re: Setting the record straight

Well said Chris!!!!!

[Dialtapper]

Re: Setting the record straight

John,
As I am reading through the things that you have said that are scattered through these 7 pages of posts I can’t help but ask the following questions:

1. What is your intention with all of this? Do you feel that slandering a multitude of people who are at the pinnacle of their field would somehow accomplish something? Do you think that by pointing the finger at everyone but yourself and refusing to accept responsibility it will make it all better?

2. Throughout your time as pilot you sang praises of the Crew Chief & Engine Builder, The Crew and anyone associated with the project. Now because of a mistake on your part you have gone out and “found” a plethora of people that are all saying that none of us know what we are talking about. Which is correct? We either know or we don’t.

3. You were more than happy to put faith in our collective efforts and claim the glory, fame, and rewards that were built by a group of individuals who made Rare Bear a labor of love. Then when a mistake was made by you (No one has ever insinuated that it was intentional, malicious, or planned) you immediately turned and threw us collectively under the proverbial bus. To save what? Your reputation? You already had that. If you had said “I screwed up” We would have been bummed, slept on it, and to a man as we did anyway would have jumped in and fixed the problem, learned from it and moved forward. Instead we were faced at every turn with someone who did everything they could to make the process as difficult as possible.

The damage was done on your watch, there is video proof of it. The damage was repaired. It set the race program back 3 months, Killed our 3k attempt and prevented us from fielding a well tested racer in 2012, instead we were faced playing catch-up and doing flight tests during race week.

Your job was to follow instructions, fly the airplane, and provide us with the information needed to make it faster.
You failed (Again not intentionally, maliciously, or was it ever thought to have been planned)

A simple “I screwed up, I’m sorry” Would have made you the bigger man, earned a ton of respect, and not changed the end result other than the amount of effort you have expended dragging some amazing people through the mud.

I also can’t help but wonder, If you have all of this information collected from various parties proving that we are wrong why not gather it together and present it to Dave? Or at the very least present hard data other than “Somebody’s 2nd cousin who knew a guy from the war that saw an airplane fly once said” I know Dave is always open to new ideas and information and willing to listen and learn any time something is presented that will improve reliability and/or performance. Coming to a public forum and throwing **** against the proverbial wall with no purpose other than making yourself feel vilified is neither productive nor endearing to anyone.

Mr. Seelye, you called me "Your Eloquence"

I got nothing on you.

Nicely done.

[Dialtapper]

Re: Setting the record straight

Wow Chris. It was truly intended to be a humorous emulation of your own disarming style of which I’ve been the recipient of and we both laughed off in earlier times. Serious miscalculation. Sorry to offend. Edited out.


Stew and I, a former crew chief and one of our best former engine mechanics are in complete agreement. This engine was damaged by excessive CHT. To date the engine overheating problem has not been fixed.

Sorry John, I see no humor in this thread whatsoever.

Just because you keep repeating there's an overheating problem doesn't make it true.

If what your claiming was true, 'A history of chronic excessive CHT that warp valve seats', then why is it the only time we have ever R&R cylinders for warped valve seats is when you didn't follow the engine builder/system designer/Crew Chief's instructions?

If what your claiming was true we would be changing jugs after every flight.

[toldjaso]

Re: Setting the record straight

Mr. Luvara,

I’m pretty sure you’re the guy that makes the telemetry system that nearly every race team uses. I’ve never heard a single bad word spoken about you. I would like to comment on your post by making a general statement aimed at our sport. It is not intended to be disrespectful. I suppose it is really intended to set the record straight.

Each of us has to work a lifetime to earn the skills that make us worthy of being called an air racer. It takes a huge family of highly motivated experts, like yourself, to keep this magnificent sport alive. There seems to be a self-destructive gene that every one of us air racers are afflicted with. We love to pretend that were are expert in a field that we are not expert in. Time and again, I hear Race Car telemetry systems are simple, cheap, and easily adaptable to air racing. I could say they’re full of it but that would make me full of it, because it’s not my expertise. I’ll just bet that everyone who tried it, got themselves a rude awakening. But there I go again.

So which one of you guys are expert in thermodynamics? Is it, John Penney, Stu Dawson, Mike Luvara or the elder statesman? I’d bet on the elder statesman. But there I go again.


By the way: Who is that masked man?

[Dialtapper]

Re: Setting the record straight

Mr. Luvara,

I’m pretty sure you’re the guy that makes the telemetry system that nearly every race team uses. I’ve never heard a single bad word spoken about you. I would like to comment on your post by making a general statement aimed at our sport. It is not intended to be disrespectful. I suppose it is really intended to set the record straight.

Each of us has to work a lifetime to earn the skills that make us worthy of being called an air racer. It takes a huge family of highly motivated experts, like yourself, to keep this magnificent sport alive. There seems to be a self-destructive gene that every one of us air racers are afflicted with. We love to pretend that were are expert in a field that we are not expert in. Time and again, I hear Race Car telemetry systems are simple, cheap, and easily adaptable to air racing. I could say they’re full of it but that would make me full of it, because it’s not my expertise. I’ll just bet that everyone who tried it, got themselves a rude awakening. But there I go again.

So which one of you guys are expert in thermodynamics? Is it, John Penney, Stu Dawson, Mike Luvara or the elder statesman? I’d bet on the elder statesman. But there I go again.




By the way: Who is that masked man?

Toldjaso, Didn't Mr. Luvara say he had a 3350 exhaust valve as a paper weight sitting on his desk? I think that might make him an expert in.......... exhaust gas.