Unlimited Race Starts; Reno 2012 - Saturday

[FuryFan]

Re: Unlimited Race Starts; Reno 2012 - Saturday

Anyone else notice how much Strega was moving around as they made the final turn and started down the chute. Hoot must have enjoyed flying off that wing. The Sea Furys seem to be a bit more stable in turbulance.

Kevin

[BUD_XXX]

Re: Unlimited Race Starts; Reno 2012 - Saturday

Yup! I guess when your in the Front... there ain't so much turbulence!

[BUD_XXX]

Re: Unlimited Race Starts; Reno 2012 - Saturday

So what would the procedure be, for slowing down The Bear...forming up to the flight??

Would you throttle back? Adjust the prop pitch? Change the mixture? All the above? I guess they are going too fast to be "slippin it"... Something else???

[taglialavore]

Re: Unlimited Race Starts; Reno 2012 - Saturday

Great Great video Scotty.
Thank you for posting it

[Scotty G]

Re: Unlimited Race Starts; Reno 2012 - Saturday

What some people need to understand is that Rare Bear is a radial engined, air-cooled airplane. You just don't go yanking the power off of it if you want the engine to last - especially if you're about to beat the crap out of it on the course.

I wonder how much time Stew has in the airplane... Probably well under ten hours. "Getting to know" that airplane probably takes way longer than your standard warbird, and most pilots would need a rather long time to get to know something as basic as a T-6.

In other words, a lot of this **** isn't easy. The try it in formation for a big race.

I put the video up to allow fans and potential race pilots to see how these things go. Not for certain people to be overly critical... (Not that that's *really* happening here, but I hope you get my drift.)

There are just times where you misjudge your energy state and closure rate, and you're going to go sailing by the formation. I bet Stew had somebody on his outside which precluded him from widening out and bleeding off some speed. Clearly that would have made it easier for him. In the end, he got in for the start and that's that.

[Scotty G]

Re: Unlimited Race Starts; Reno 2012 - Saturday

Anyone else notice how much Strega was moving around as they made the final turn and started down the chute. Hoot must have enjoyed flying off that wing. The Sea Furys seem to be a bit more stable in turbulance.

Kevin

Kevin,

Actually a good question. I wish we could get Steve Hinton Sr., Jr. Stew, Hoot, or Matt Jackson to answer it. Matt?

But my take on it, since you asked, is that the pilots are really busy getting the engine's supporting systems dialed in: ADI and spraybar primarily. Then you check your door position and motor it where you want it if the auto system doesn't. You gotta look and find the switch or twiddle valve for all of these things. Some of this even happens on base to the chute, and maybe earlier...

Your power is changing, your airspeed is changing, and that means your trim is changing. (A Mustang is very trim sensitive.) Please trust me... Their hands are way full during this time - AND they're flying formation.

Everybody is saying the formation is this or that, and really have no idea what's really going on. And that's okay... Most people haven't been there. I say they're doing a decent job on what looks to be a bumpy day. That's why there is some room in the formation, because they all expect this.

A lot of systems are automatic with manual fine-tuning available. Running the wrong ADI will blow up your engine or limit power outside of a narrow band. Gotta be on that, and that means heads-down for a moment or two as you monitor that gauge.

In that one moment, a bump of turbulence, or a movement by lead or a wingman can easily be 100+ feet in any direction, or two directions. It happens way faster than you can imagine if you've never done it.

Again, that's why these guys aren't doing the Blue Angel's routine... Also, good race pilots will look "through" the plane ahead of them in the formation and allow them to move around while flying position off of lead, or the next stable guy in the formation. Happens in EVERY race formation, trust me. Hoot knows this, and I'm sure he does it, too.

Having been in a few of these situations, these guys aren't doing half as bad a job as some might think. Nothing is ever perfect, and I've never ever ever ever ever been part of a perfect formation. Sure, we PASS THROUGH perfection, and then try to correct back to it. But it's elusive.

As for Sea Furies being more stable - aircraft type has nothing to do with it. Wing loading does. Higher wing loading means an aircraft isn't affected as bad by outside disturbance such as turbulence. And airplanes like Sawbones don't have as much "stuff" to set up as a Strega, 232, or Rare Bear airplanes does.

There's my two cents. That, and another $4.95 will get you a small Starbucks. If you're into that sort of thing.

[Randy Haskin]

Re: Unlimited Race Starts; Reno 2012 - Saturday

Also, good race pilots will look "through" the plane ahead of them in the formation and allow them to move around while flying position off of lead, or the next stable guy in the formation.

That's actually good technique in any echelon formation, or if you are #4 of a fingertip formation.

[Randy Haskin]

Re: Unlimited Race Starts; Reno 2012 - Saturday

I put the video up to allow fans and potential race pilots to see how these things go. Not for certain people to be overly critical... (Not that that's *really* happening here, but I hope you get my drift.)

There are just times where you misjudge your energy state and closure rate, and you're going to go sailing by the formation.

As the guy who made the comment, I'll own up to the spear that Scott is throwing here.

I commented mostly as a joke, not as a serious criticism of performance. I've been flying multi-ship formation for about 15 years, and have been part of plenty of clown acts of my own. Some of these guys have been flying formation for probably longer than I've been alive. Some haven't.

I come from a community where all aspects of performance are critically analyzed. The standard in my business is perfection, and any time a performance doesn't meet that standard, we expect to have that identified and discussed, always very pointedly and often quite publicly. We know it is not a personal criticism, but professional -- it is an identification of a performance that is not perfect. It does not equate in any way to an insult or the like. Nor does it mean the person giving that criticism is themselves perfect, or pitching a spear from an ivory tower. One does not have to be perfect to identify errors in others.

As such, we learn to receive that criticism without feeling defensive, as we personally know we, too, want to achieve a higher level of performance. I give that criticism with exactly the same expectation of receiving that criticism if my performance is not up to perfection. As Scott said, the perfect formation (or, for that matter, the perfect flight) has never been flown, so there is always something to debrief. I've often been on the receiving end of such brutal criticism, and I credit that heavily with my personal development as an aviator.

Such identification of imperfection is the only way to be completely honest and improve performance (this applies to many areas outside aviation as well). Sweeping error/imperfection/performance identification under the rug so we do not ruffle feathers and egoes does not improve anything, and it only erodes a culture of honesty, self-improvement, and professionalism.

I recognize that not all corners of the aviation world are this way, and obviously not everyone gives and receives this type of comment as a normal course of their day-to-day operations. I realize by making such a comment, it probably ruffled feathers (although, again, in my world, such a thing is nothing of note -- a comment that would be made in jest in the normal course of everyday business, and received as such, too). I assure you all, that it was not meant as a serious spear at anyone, nor should anyone interpret it as me expressing some air of superiority over anyone flying in that video. I apologize if it was taken that way -- it was certainly not intended that way.

Scott's right -- there are many many factors involved, and let's be honest that the purpose of *this* formation is to join up for a race start...not to be smooth or perfect looking. So long as they're safe, and end up where the pace pilot wants them to be on the start, then that's all that really matters here.

FWIW, race planes are not the only aircraft who have to fly formation while having a cockpit-intensive, sometimes heads-down workload.

[440_Magnum]

Re: Unlimited Race Starts; Reno 2012 - Saturday

What some people need to understand is that Rare Bear is a radial engined, air-cooled airplane. You just don't go yanking the power off of it if you want the engine to last - especially if you're about to beat the crap out of it on the course.

You beat me to it. Remember I'm a gearhead engineer couch-bird, not a pilot, so the first thing that occurs to me is that you just can't be dinkin' all over with the throttle or prop controls at that moment or the metal bits might shrink and distort. Not only are the jugs hot and pulling power abruptly will shock cool them, but ADI and other systems might be on and being set up for race power. I don't know anything about how automated that aircraft is, but manual intervention with ADI and an spray water (does 77 even use jug spray water like I've seen on the 4360 aircraft?) may be necessary. Throttling back if the ADI rate doesn't automatically track with manifold pressure is a good way to wind up gliding, at least momentarily. Alcohol/water slugging through the hot cylinders without sufficient air and fuel to keep the fires lit will also do Very Bad Things (tm) to valves and other red-hot metal bits.

And I can't help also thinking that the Bear had been in a b*tchy mood all week, so Mr. Dawson had to be paying a lot of extra attention to EVERYTHING.

[BUD_XXX]

Re: Unlimited Race Starts; Reno 2012 - Saturday

This is starting to get good!

[Scotty G]

Re: Unlimited Race Starts; Reno 2012 - Saturday

Well, sorry, if this is getting good, then I'm about to defuse it.

I'm not throwing any spears at anybody. If I throw a spear, that person will generally know it right off the bat. I'm outta spears, too.

I've made statements on the internet and in print (which is forever) and I've ruffled some feathers and earned the ire of several big dogs. I'm not saying I was wrong, but was what I said necessary? Maybe not. Did it matter in the history of life? Would I like it if somebody that's never raced was critical of me in a public forum? Probably not.

I just think a lot of railbirds, being uneducated on a lot of this stuff, have an easy time of calling shots from the sidelines that are overly critical of what they see. It's easy to do - you don't really know what's going on in what you're watching. Normally, it's harmless. Sometimes it's not.

But what I do know, for sure, is that some of these guys actually doing it read this stuff, and get pissed off because of several factors.

Asking, learning and understanding are perfectly fine. Making a critical judgement call on the internet is another when you're not in the seat. And what Hacker did wasn't even close to the worst I've seen. He's coming from a "learn and share" viewpoint.

And again, to be clear, there aren't any spears thrown towards any one, two, or three people in particular. It's a general statement.

To Hacker's credit, I know and knew where he was coming from. And I'm all for calling a spade a spade. But the way this internet thing is heading, I just envision a softer side where the criticality of others is turned down to about a two.

[AAFO_WSagar]

Re: Unlimited Race Starts; Reno 2012 - Saturday

Hummn.... Dunno Scotty, I just re-read through this thread and truly didn't see anything that would piss anyone off.. Unless I'm reading it with my head up my rear.. Looked like, for the most part, folks were just wondering at what they were seeing..

Not a pilot here, as you know, but I've participated in a few T-6 starts, as well as a few Unlimited demo starts.. When you see the formup from closeup, it's WAY different than when you watch from the ground. Same when you watch a Tbirds or Blues formo from the gopro cams... there's just a lot of relative motion, one guy's on one part of the "wave" the next guy, another part of the wave, one goes up, the other down.. MUCH like getting two boats together, only add in a few more dimensions!!

Anyway, just my honest opine here.. thread and subject matter looks good to me, if we hurt anyone's feelings, I'm sure I'll hear about it..

Great video by the way!!

[BUD_XXX]

Re: Unlimited Race Starts; Reno 2012 - Saturday

Well, Great Video!

I hope we see more and more of these leak out to the Internet....

I saw lots of aircraft with GoPro's and more sophisticated hardware, so I hope that translates into cool vids!

So thanks!

[Mluvara]

Re: Unlimited Race Starts; Reno 2012 - Saturday

You beat me to it. Remember I'm a gearhead engineer couch-bird, not a pilot, so the first thing that occurs to me is that you just can't be dinkin' all over with the throttle or prop controls at that moment or the metal bits might shrink and distort. Not only are the jugs hot and pulling power abruptly will shock cool them, but ADI and other systems might be on and being set up for race power. I don't know anything about how automated that aircraft is, but manual intervention with ADI and an spray water (does 77 even use jug spray water like I've seen on the 4360 aircraft?) may be necessary. Throttling back if the ADI rate doesn't automatically track with manifold pressure is a good way to wind up gliding, at least momentarily. Alcohol/water slugging through the hot cylinders without sufficient air and fuel to keep the fires lit will also do Very Bad Things (tm) to valves and other red-hot metal bits.

And I can't help also thinking that the Bear had been in a b*tchy mood all week, so Mr. Dawson had to be paying a lot of extra attention to EVERYTHING.

Don't want to take this thread on too much of a detour, but I've seen a lot of commentary on theories about ADI supposedly flooding engines this year. One thing to consider - the ADI flow rate is typically 1-3 gallons per minute, depending on the specific motor and HP ability of the motor, etc.

With that said, let's say it is 3 gallons per minute. That equates to 6.4oz per second. How can 6.4 ounces going through a supercharger that has violently swirling air at probably 80 deg C, not chop up and essentially vaporize the fluid by the time it gets to the 18 individual cylinders on a radial??? That's .35 oz of fluid per cylinder intake! I think there needs to be some thought about what happens inside a motor. The ability of that much water to shock cool that much metal is not realistic.

Water/ADI is not pouring down the intake tubes. It's there to cool the intake charge, but it isn't a fire hose.

If an ADI system is set up smartly, it will automatically cut off below a pre-determined manifold pressure setting.

Certainly, one has to be careful with motor operation and rapid power changes. I have lots of cockpit video and data showing ADI coming on and off of racers coming down the chute. It doesn't shock cool the engine.

Michael

[Scotty G]

Re: Unlimited Race Starts; Reno 2012 - Saturday

Water/ADI is not pouring down the intake tubes. It's there to cool the intake charge, but it isn't a fire hose.

If an ADI system is set up smartly, it will automatically cut off below a pre-determined manifold pressure setting.

Certainly, one has to be careful with motor operation and rapid ending changes. I have lots of cockpit video and data showing ADI coming on and off of racers coming down the chute. It doesn't shock cool the engine.

Michael

True, Mike, but check out a Victor Archer photo of Strega from a pylon where it's clear one cylinder has a problem vice the others in terms of ADI and lunching an engine...

Sooooooo many details... So few Pete Law's, Dixon Smith's and Kerch's... I know you know...

And SO many experts!