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Thread: Patriot Demo Team

  1. #11
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    Default Re: Patriot Demo Team

    FYI............That would be a DQ for the Unlimiteds and we've already seen what an L-39 looks like when it "ties the record" a few thousand feet behind where this photo was taken. Totally unnecessary and irresponsible in my opinion and that is the absolute LAST kind of risk taking that we needed this year. I have no idea about the "Knock it off" but I would be glad if it were for this pass and the Fed's slapped them for it.

    JC

  2. #12
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    Default Re: Patriot Demo Team

    I agree. I had a head full of "what ifs" after that pass. Sure glad Sunday's was higher.

  3. #13
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    Default Re: Patriot Demo Team

    That Patriots are all pro's, former military demo, all with day jobs, and they fly an excellent routine. There was no issue if FAA apologized, seriously, when do they ever apologize?

    They have crafted an outstanding show and are an absolute joy to experience.

    A good airshow performer creates the illusion of risk through extreme precision, and these guys are top shelf.

    I was surprised by the knock-off call and suspected the low pass myself since it was, as always, very impressive, but the low pass was not the subject of the knock-off, and after reviewing actual evidence FAA apologized, 'nuff said.

  4. #14

    Default Re: Patriot Demo Team

    JC thanks for participating, I wasn't there this year and only saw this pass in the picture in this thread. I understand this would be a DQ in the racing environment, but a single pass by an airshow performer, isn't that a little different?

  5. #15
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    Default Re: Patriot Demo Team

    Nope. It's an unnecessary risk that was not needed, especially this year. All the racers were very mindful of what was at stake this year and the performers should be held to the same standard. I've personally never heard an Air Boss call a "knock it off" on an act without something going very wrong. I don't know what else it could have been.

    JC

  6. #16
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    Default Re: Patriot Demo Team

    Quote Originally Posted by JCP View Post
    I've personally never heard an Air Boss call a "knock it off" on an act without something going very wrong. I don't know what else it could have been.
    As was posted earlier, it was an accusation by the FAA that they cut the corner, which was later proved false by the video.

    With respect to the pass in the photo....racers don't all hold zero-altitude ACE cards like the Patriot performers do. Comparison is apples and oranges. Discussion of the FAA "slapping" anyone, given that qualification and that it is part of the normal Patriots show, is also not relevant.

    So far as "unnecessary risk" during the week this year, in my approximation it was an unusually boring and conservative year. Of course, that's a good thing this time around.
    Last edited by Randy Haskin; 09-19-2012 at 12:35 PM.

  7. #17
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    Default Re: Patriot Demo Team

    I have yet to see any evidence that the "knock it off" was in response to a corner cut (other than a post ) and personally find it hard to believe an Air Boss would call off the act so quickly for that. "Knock it off" is usually reserved for something VERY serious. I do see a totally unnecessarily low pass however.

    I really appreciate your service to our country Randy, but with all due respect, Air Racing and Air Shows are completely different than flying in combat or for our government. I'm sure you would agree.

    This is a sport called Air Racing and everything else that happens during the week between the races is the "eye candy". This is the "Reno Air Races" and unless we want it to become the "Reno Air Show" than we really need the Racing Gods to be kind in the next few years.

    Having an ACE card doesn't mean Jack **** when you hit the ground. Sooo, I would call it quite relevant and indeed apples to apples. The folks that have earned Ace Cards have obviously gone through the process and proven their ability so they are able to perform certain maneuvers at Air Shows..awesome. But, we still have accidents and we still have excellent Pilots (even with ACE cards) who are no longer with us. Do I really need to remind you of two especially talented Air Racers and Ace card holders that we've lost this year and that we all admired? My point is that it can happen to the best.

    Regarding the Race Pilots and Ace card holders: I know several people with ACE cards that are not even half as talented as some of the race pilots that have no interest in getting one.

    I'm proud of all the racers for pulling off an "unusually boring and conservative year" as you put it Randy.......I'm glad none of them (especially the ones with ACE cards) felt the need to jeopardize our sport with unnecessary apples to apples showing off.

    Fact is, most of us love flying low and really love watching low passes...but I don't know anyone in Air Racing that would jeopardize the sport by doing so at the Races. Save that stuff for the Air Shows and after 5:00pm when the Feds go home.

    I love Air Show aerobatics and would even like to do more of them in my own Air Show routines, but this is Air Racing. One slip up can end it all right now. Sound judgement is imperative. Even if is does look a little "boring" to some.

    JC

  8. #18
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    Default Re: Patriot Demo Team

    A member of the Patriots team told me about the corner cut and how it was resolved via video review, so that's about as reliable of a source as I can think of. I can't offer some media link to back that up, unfortunately. Since the FAA's accusation ended up being unsubstantiated, I doubt we'll ever see anything in print about it, either. I'm happy to eat crow if it turns out to be something else.

    The ACE card comment was in reply to your quote that, "That would be a DQ for the Unlimiteds". An aerobatic routine isn't an unlimited race -- the rules are different. I'm not claiming to have special knowledge of either; I haven't raced an unlimited, nor do I have an ACE card. The comment is no more relevant, though, than me saying that I'd be grounded permanently from the USAF for making such a low pass. While true, it still has no relevance on if it was legal or appropriate for the Patriots to do it in their routine. All of them are totally different games that have different standards and expectations.

    I understand your point that, given the overall situation in terms of the event being under the microscope, it might have been smart to play it conservative.

    The Patriots, however, were hired to perform their routine -- it is not the Patriots' job to manage risk for RARA. It's not like they just decided out of the blue to "show off" as you say, and spring something new on RARA when they flew their show. You and I both know that airshow performers have specific routines that are meticulously planned, rehearsed, and executed the same way, every time, to ensure both a safe performance and an entertaining performance. RARA knew what they were buying; if RARA had wanted specific elements of the performance omitted to keep the risk lower, I'm sure they could have negotiated that with the team. It's begging the question, anyway, to assume that the low pass was somehow inherently more risky than anything else they do during their routine.

    It certainly wasn't in the Patriots' wheelhouse to drop elements of their performance on their own accord to reduce some perception of risk because of their concern for the future of the NCAR. That's not what professionals do. The best thing they could do was execute as clean and tight of a performance of their planned routine as was possible.

    I don't want the NCAR to end any more than you do. I was extremely happy that things went the way they did, and hope that it's enough to keep the party going next year and beyond.

    I just don't see how throwing stones at the Patriots over something that didn't happen is helping support that point of view. We're not throwing stones at Matt Jackson for his judgment in handing the gear issues with Furias....we're not busting on Dennis Sanders for getting caught in wake turbulence by Pylon 2 and overbanking past 90-degrees twice, on two subsequent laps in the same race. We're not questioning how Thom Richard flew three laps at race speeds without knowing a big part had come off his aircraft.

    These are all things that "could" have caused something more significant to happen, but didn't. Why no furor over those?

    We all want the same result here, but I just don't see how the Patriots performance introduced any more risk into the mix than anything else that happened out on the course during the week.
    Last edited by Randy Haskin; 09-19-2012 at 09:32 PM.

  9. #19
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    Default Re: Patriot Demo Team

    Very Simple......

    Every person and situation you mentioned involved an Air Racer involved in a situation during an [I]Air Race. Let's also not forget to mention that none of them were Black Flagged...you know, the racer equivalent of a "Knock it Off"

    The Patriot's are excellent, no question......but they did not sell a single ticket and nobody really cares if they are there or not. They are the "eye candy" to fill time between races. They are not there to Jeopardize the sport that the men you mentioned work so hard to build and keep going.

    As I said before..... Air Show performance ( Awesome ). But, these are the Races and every performer should respect the the fragile state of affairs of our Sport and I believe a "Knock it off" is contrary to that, for whatever the reason.

    To even compare their "performance choices" to the emergency situations and known possible factors that the racers may encounter is absolutely ludicrous.... you just threw some of the best men in the business under the bus just to try to make a point at which you have failed.

    Quite lame.

    JC

  10. #20
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    Default Re: Patriot Demo Team

    Quote Originally Posted by JCP View Post
    Very Simple......

    Every person and situation you mentioned involved an Air Racer involved in a situation during an Air Race. Let's also not forget to mention that none of them were Black Flagged...you know, the racer equivalent of a "Knock it Off"
    I agree -- none of the racers I mentioned as examples were black flagged because they didn't do anything wrong (that was exactly my point in bringing them up; quite the opposite of 'throwing them under the bus'). These were simply situations that came up that 'could have' turned into something risky but didn't.

    Just like the Patriots weren't KIO'd because of the low pass that you guys are talking about that could have theoretically gone bad -- a pass they performed safely every day during their performances pretty much exactly the same way, and failed to elicit a KIO on any of them. Again, it was an FAA accusation of a corner cut which elicited the KIO, which was later proven wrong.

    I get it that Reno is the "Air Races" and that one set of events occurred during a race and the other during the show between races. Like it or not, the "races" are also an "airshow", which is why those acts can perform. Like you, I don't particularly care for the airshow acts, but clearly RARA has calculated that some percentage of the viewing audience in the grandstands does, and continues to book acts every year.

    If your point is, "there shouldn't be an airshow at Reno because it induces extra risk," then that is a spear to throw at RARA, not at the performers. The Patriots were hired to execute a performance, which they did. RARA knew exactly what the Patriot performance included when they booked them. They were perfectly aware of the risks and perceptions of risk involved, and could have taken steps to change the performance if they wanted to.
    Last edited by Randy Haskin; 09-20-2012 at 06:25 AM.

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