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Thread: Patriot Demo Team

  1. #51
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Boise, Idaho
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    150

    Default Re: Patriot Demo Team

    I just got back in the Boise Bee from the Paso Robles Air Show and decided to check in....I'm pretty sure you didn't bother to read my posts Chris, I think they were pretty easy to understand and you completely missed the point.

    Thank you Randy for summarizing what I was talking about! (Hang in there Big Jim)..

    Did you ever see those guys you mentioned perform Chris? I sure as hell did.......and then some.

    I was even fortunate enough to watch Ray Hanna perform an acro routine at Duxford in our P-40E "Sneak Attack". That is still one of the coolest things I've ever seen.

    JC
    Last edited by JCP; 10-01-2012 at 03:20 PM.

  2. #52
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Pacific Palisades, CA
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    680

    Default Re: Patriot Demo Team

    Yeah,
    I have seen and lucky to have known all of the people I mentioned fly, that was why I specifically mentioned them. They all flew low and well.
    I read all of your posts and just didn't agree with you.
    But that's OK, we all have our opinions.
    Glad the Mustang is flying well,
    Chris...

  3. #53
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Location
    TUS
    Posts
    665

    Default Re: Patriot Demo Team

    There's a picture of last year's low pass on the bottom of page 133 in this year's program. Pretty sure RARA knew what they were getting.
    Sky Critter

  4. #54
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Boise, Idaho
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    150

    Default Re: Patriot Demo Team

    Hi Guys,

    I'm still perplexed that anyone could ever confuse my opinion that an unnecessary "air show" maneuver (in my opinion) that constituted an FAA "knock it off" during the most pivotal of all years of Air Racing, which by the way was under unprecedented scrutiny by the FEDS as well as the public at large could ever be compared to Bob Hoover, Bob Love or Bill Forniff?

    I respect Randy's argument and opinion because he stayed on topic (again, hang in there Big Jim!) and it made sense. As far as your assertions that I'm against the incredible performances of the men you mentioned Chris......you pulled that out of thin air. As a matter of fact, I aspire to fly as best as I am capable of, in my lifetime , to those guys. That includes my ability to fly well when flying in Air Show performances.

    Do not put words in my mouth or spin the conversation I've had with Randy about the "Knock it off" into some sort of uninformed opinion about Air Show Legends.

    Is this board really attracting the mind set that killed WIX?

    I hope not.

    JC

    One last thing Chris.. I find the calus nature of your sarcastic remark about Bill's death to be beneath tasteful or respectable.
    Last edited by JCP; 10-05-2012 at 10:52 PM.

  5. #55
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Pacific Palisades, CA
    Posts
    680

    Default Re: Patriot Demo Team

    I was on topic, the topic was low flying while performing an airshow routine. Changing of anyone's routine is known to be a contributing factor to many accidents. Just my opinion.

    My response to another's post about Bill's accident was to show that the poster was not on topic as far as the why of Bill's death. The poster seemed to indicate that because he died doing a low show it was pilot error. Since the cause was Fatal Inflight Airframe Failure, there was no difference as to how high the show was when the airframe failed.

    Your rush to offense is puzzling.
    Chris...

  6. #56
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    Pacific Northwest
    Posts
    7,856

    Default Re: Patriot Demo Team

    Quote Originally Posted by JCP View Post
    Is this board really attracting the mind set that killed WIX?

    I hope not.
    JC... not as long as I'm the administrator!

    This is a "spirited" thread, I enjoyed the conversation between you and Randy, I certainly "got" your point!

    I probably have not "policed" this thread closely enough in the interim between you and Randy and what's been happening.. I get my messages in an email digest and I just changed email programs (I was still using an old version of Qualcom Eudora for heck's sake!) and I'm probably not watching the digest closely enough as I dial in the new proggy (open source new Eudora).

    If anything, I'm usually held to task for watching things TOO closely here, for the exact reasons you state, I don't want a hostile place!

    Just remember the old saying "Non rectallis Carborundum" (don't let the a$$holes grind you down).....
    Wayne Sagar
    "Pusher of Electrons"

  7. #57
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Philly, PA
    Posts
    196

    Default Re: Patriot Demo Team

    Quote Originally Posted by stuntflyr View Post
    I was on topic, the topic was low flying while performing an airshow routine. Changing of anyone's routine is known to be a contributing factor to many accidents. Just my opinion.

    My response to another's post about Bill's accident was to show that the poster was not on topic as far as the why of Bill's death. The poster seemed to indicate that because he died doing a low show it was pilot error. Since the cause was Fatal Inflight Airframe Failure, there was no difference as to how high the show was when the airframe failed.

    Your rush to offense is puzzling.
    Chris...
    Actually I'm well aware of the Bearcat wing structure and the cracks that form in the Spar Webs and the threaded holes in the Spar Caps that break when overloaded. Been deep inside that area before and have even worked on the Bearcat that Corky flew when flown as part of Bob Pond's Collection. I see how the airframe will break and I'm aware of the results.
    But I still don't see how those legends you brought up fit the context of this discussion. The issue isn't low flying but that this year's event was not the time and place in JCP's opinion.

  8. #58

    Default Re: Patriot Demo Team

    I just finished reading this thread, start-to-finish, every single post.

    Well said, all. Including Chris- I immediately understood your sarcasm about structural failure at any altitude FWIW. There is certainly merit to both sides of the discussion, and I do understand JCP's concern about this year being under extra scrutiny. I also acknowledge Randy's feeling that the Patriots shouldn't be expected to change their product unless asked to do so. Frankly I'd think that changing a routine that is so consistently rehearsed and performed would ADD risk... but that's just my view from outside a pilot's world.

    But the first thing that popped into MY mind hasn't been brought up (or I somehow missed it), and that is this: Don't you think that maybe it was BECAUSE of "extra scrutiny" this year that a knock-it-off call was made (erroneously, as it turns out)? I would imagine that the feds had their fingers a little tighter on the trigger than most years and might therefore have been more prone to erroneous KIO calls. Not that this is a bad thing, necessarily, but a factor in the mix.

  9. #59

    Default Re: Patriot Demo Team

    "I'm still perplexed that anyone could ever confuse my opinion that an unnecessary "air show" maneuver (in my opinion) that constituted an FAA "knock it off" during the most pivotal of all years of Air Racing, which by the way was under unprecedented scrutiny by the FEDS as well as the public at large could ever be compared to Bob Hoover, Bob Love or Bill Forniff?"


    Its been mentioned several times that the "knock it off" was NOT a result of the low pass. The FAA felt they had cut a corner, I'm guessing that was on either end of the show line. Subsequent review of the video proved that they had not cut the corner and an apology was issued by the FAA.
    Last edited by Arctic Cat; 10-09-2012 at 12:14 PM.

  10. #60

    Default Re: Patriot Demo Team

    I wasn't even aware there was a problem with the Patriots this year. Actually that low pass would be considered a HIGH flyby in a Super Cub. On the serious side, I've seem the Patriots perform numerous times and have always enjoyed their show. They fly a nice tight show and it's always very entertaining.........however, one thing that bothers me, is how much practice do they actually get. The military teams practice for months prior to the airshow season. The Patriots are from all over the country, plus Canada.......how often are the able to get together to practice. I know they're all experienced pilots, I'm not questioning their individual abilities, and I'm not pointing fingers, I'm just wondering. I'm also curious where they practice. I know they're based out of Byron Airport.
    If you liked that low pass you should have seen them at Miramar a few years ago when they flew formation with the Fry's Electronics 747sp. The 747 made a low pass that ..........well, lets just say, even in a super cub, it would have been low
    Brian

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