AvWeb blog ref Ghost

[AAFO_WSagar]

Re: AvWeb blog ref Ghost

If, I'm reading all this correctly, we really have a repeat of the 1998 VooDoo incident... very big difference in the outcome, obviously.

I'll do a search of the document King, I'm curious as to their wording on this, as well as what's right before, and after.

[Mluvara]

Re: AvWeb blog ref Ghost

Some core things are being lost in this discussion.

Voodoo and the Ghost both had trim tabs separate, but under similar, yet different circumstances. Voodoo was not modified like the Ghost was.

The following statement from the NTSB's abstract speaks clearly about this accident.

http://www.ntsb.gov/news/events/2012/reno_nv/Abstract_%20Reno.pdf

"The accident airplane had undergone many structural and flight control modifications that were undocumented and for which no flight testing or analysis had been performed to assess their effects on the airplane’s structural strength, performance, or flight characteristics. The
investigation determined that some of these modifications had undesirable effects. For example, the use of a single, controllable elevator trim tab (installed on the left elevator) increased the aerodynamic load on the left trim tab (compared to a stock airplane, which has a controllable tab on each elevator). Also, filler material on the elevator trim tabs (both the controllable left tab and the fixed right tab) increased the potential for flutter because it increased the weight of the tabs and moved their center of gravity aft, and modifications to the elevator counterweights and inertia weight made the airplane more sensitive in pitch control. It is likely that, had engineering evaluations and diligent flight testing for the modifications been performed, many of the airplane’s undesirable structural and control characteristics could have been identified and corrected."

And one of the NTSB board members said the following:

“If you’re modifying an aircraft without fully understanding how the modifications can affect the aerodynamics, you’re playing Russian roulette,” Sumwalt said.

I think many of the critical articles out there are fair and just, given the outcome of this situation. This was preventable.

Michael

[spacegrrrl]

Re: AvWeb blog ref Ghost

Not control reversal, the airplane was WAY outa trim due to certain modifications performed.

This would have been dealt with in a controlled test program. That is what NTSB was saying between the lines.

Can you cite your source for this? I've read almost everything I could find out about the Ghost and I've never seen this claim. From pictures it is clear it flew with "down" trim but the claim about total opposite roll input in turns is new to me. For what its worth the Bear is supposed to be very odd to fly at speed as well.

On to the larger point, there is a spectrum of "rigor" in every race class, some teams are pretty "loose" about how they do things. The best teams would never have had this happen, for example, I know of race teams that would never reuse a locking nut and would have something like a critical control system inspected twice after any assembly. The top teams are not going to put a multi-million dollar racer put at risk because they didn't spend $100 on new lock nuts every time they had to use one. Heck, I just went through my sailboat (which technically I race) and replaced every fastener in my rigging because I didn't trust them after discovering one lock nut that worked its way off and was no longer able to function as a locking fastener.

Spacegrrrl

[Red]

Re: AvWeb blog ref Ghost

Can you cite your source for this? I've read almost everything I could find out about the Ghost and I've never seen this claim. From pictures it is clear it flew with "down" trim but the claim about total opposite roll input in turns is new to me. For what its worth the Bear is supposed to be very odd to fly at speed as well.


Spacegrrrl

It's in the NTSB report, that's where I read it.

[xmh53wrench]

Re: AvWeb blog ref Ghost

"Power and asymmetries on the airframe resulted in a net left rolling moment that the pilot was balancing throughout the race with right aileron."

Per NTSB report "Aircraft Performance Study - pg 25"

I am assuming this is what yall are looking for...

[supercub]

Re: AvWeb blog ref Ghost

Was this due to..........only one trim tab causing a twisting in the tail and fuselage, which is indicated by the oil canning in the photos? This is what I'm suspecting?
Brian

[C_roundy]

Re: AvWeb blog ref Ghost

.................................................. .................................................. .............................King, would you mind pointing me to the portion of the NTSB where they mention the stick in the right corner thing?

Here ya go Wayne, In this document: http://dms.ntsb.gov/pubdms/search/do...746&mkey=81814

Across p.23 & 24: Effect of Trim Tab Failure on Roll and Pitch-
To hold the right wing down aileron input seen throughout the race, the pilot had to hold the control stick to the right of center.

And p.25: Loss of Tail Asymmetry and an Increase in Stick Force Initiate Left Roll Transient-
Photo evidence shows that both sides of the aircraft experienced skin buckling during the race before the upset signifying that the aircraft was bending. Power and asymmetries on the airframe resulted in a net left rolling moment that the pilot was balancing throughout the race with right aileron. Direct forces due to the left tab trailing edge up deflection would have produced left rolling moment.

Although the rolling force produced by the assymetrical pitch trim sys, is mentioned in other places, it is not lost on me that they chose to mention it three pages in a row, before the "Conclusions" paragraphs on p.26.

[al baby]

Re: AvWeb blog ref Ghost

Here ya go Wayne, In this document: http://dms.ntsb.gov/pubdms/search/do...746&mkey=81814

Across p.23 & 24: Effect of Trim Tab Failure on Roll and Pitch-
To hold the right wing down aileron input seen throughout the race, the pilot had to hold the control stick to the right of center.

And p.25: Loss of Tail Asymmetry and an Increase in Stick Force Initiate Left Roll Transient-
Photo evidence shows that both sides of the aircraft experienced skin buckling during the race before the upset signifying that the aircraft was bending. Power and asymmetries on the airframe resulted in a net left rolling moment that the pilot was balancing throughout the race with right aileron. Direct forces due to the left tab trailing edge up deflection would have produced left rolling moment.

Although the rolling force produced by the assymetrical pitch trim sys, is mentioned in other places, it is not lost on me that they chose to mention it three pages in a row, before the "Conclusions" paragraphs on p.26.

And there you have it...

As Big Jim said, Jimmy was a nice enough guy and liked (loved?) by many just as so many do Tiger and Lyle. He was also a seasoned pilot and it is on this point that (sorry, but no other way to put it) that he failed himself, his crew and race fans. He KNEW that no properly sorted a/c should require 'opposite lock' to fly correctly and yet he pressed on.

I guarantee you that Stevo, Brent, Will, Stu, Matt and all of the others would never have flown an a/c in this condition.

I am NOT saying Jimmy wanted to crash, but rather that he was blinded by his desire to win. Not the first and sadly likely not the last as we are all human and subject to our foibles.

[AAFO_WSagar]

Re: AvWeb blog ref Ghost

It's in the NTSB report, that's where I read it.

I'd sure like it if you guys would do journalistic "due process" and quote the section you're referring to and provide reference when you post/publish stuff like this... like where in hell you found it.

We all get away with not doing much research and reference credit when we post in these forums.. I can assure you, the process within which articles are published on this website,(and hopefully most other "news" sources) are forced to provide more than, "I read it" as source or I'd never allow it to be "published" on the website proper..

So, let's be good reporters and do our homework before we say "we read something" somewhere... Don't make everyone spend hours looking for your reference, look at the document, figure out which page it's on, narrow it down to, at least, top-middle-bottom of the specific page....

Fair request I think...

[AAFO_WSagar]

Re: AvWeb blog ref Ghost

"Power and asymmetries on the airframe resulted in a net left rolling moment that the pilot was balancing throughout the race with right aileron."...

OK... from this, we extrapolate and say that he had the controls buried in the right corner to balance this?

I want to see this quote referenced in the NTSB report.. The guy/s who are quoting it, have the responsibility to show us where they found those words..

[FuryFan]

Re: AvWeb blog ref Ghost

I don't believe those exact words are anywhere in the NTSB report. Time to step up King.

Kevin

[C_roundy]

Re: AvWeb blog ref Ghost

Guys, Guys, Wayne, FuryFan, everybody!

That specific quote is on page 25 of the document I referenced with page numbers, and parapraph titles (as well as linked to) in post #38 of this thread.

As Wayne mentions, everyone should do so, but I am guilty on occasion too.

Once again, here is post #38:
Here ya go Wayne, In this document: http://dms.ntsb.gov/pubdms/search/do...746&mkey=81814
Across p.23 & 24: Effect of Trim Tab Failure on Roll and Pitch-
To hold the right wing down aileron input seen throughout the race, the pilot had to hold the control stick to the right of center.

And p.25: Loss of Tail Asymmetry and an Increase in Stick Force Initiate Left Roll Transient-
Photo evidence shows that both sides of the aircraft experienced skin buckling during the race before the upset signifying that the aircraft was bending. Power and asymmetries on the airframe resulted in a net left rolling moment that the pilot was balancing throughout the race with right aileron. Direct forces due to the left tab trailing edge up deflection would have produced left rolling moment.

Although the rolling force produced by the assymetrical pitch trim sys, is mentioned in other places, it is not lost on me that they chose to mention it three pages in a row, before the "Conclusions" paragraphs on p.26.

Peace, Chuck

[AAFO_WSagar]

Re: AvWeb blog ref Ghost

Here ya go Wayne, In this document: http://dms.ntsb.gov/pubdms/search/do...746&mkey=81814

Across p.23 & 24: Effect of Trim Tab Failure on Roll and Pitch-
To hold the right wing down aileron input seen throughout the race, the pilot had to hold the control stick to the right of center.

And p.25: Loss of Tail Asymmetry and an Increase in Stick Force Initiate Left Roll Transient-
Photo evidence shows that both sides of the aircraft experienced skin buckling during the race before the upset signifying that the aircraft was bending. Power and asymmetries on the airframe resulted in a net left rolling moment that the pilot was balancing throughout the race with right aileron. Direct forces due to the left tab trailing edge up deflection would have produced left rolling moment.

Although the rolling force produced by the assymetrical pitch trim sys, is mentioned in other places, it is not lost on me that they chose to mention it three pages in a row, before the "Conclusions" paragraphs on p.26.

OK... once again, where does it state that as much opposite control forces were required as are referenced in the post that started this?

I don't like the process of exageration... period! I've stood at the pit rope line and watched a "story" from the guy on the team, to the next guy, the guy behind him and so on... was lucky enough to hear all of them. The growth of the story, in a few seconds was simply amazing.

Opposite control actions are not that uncommon with the more highly modified racers, the skills of the pilot, usually, make us ground pounders unaware of how much work it was to keep it on line... once again....Show me where it says he had it "buried in the corner" please!

Otherwise, I'm gonna call FOUL because someone is exaggerating!

[AAFO_WSagar]

Re: AvWeb blog ref Ghost

To hold the right wing down aileron input seen throughout the race, the pilot had to hold the control stick to the right of center

OK..., I think we've established that Jimmy was having to do a bit of reverse correction, again, not completely unusual in the highly modified category of racers..

So, once again, show me where it says that he had to have it as Kind stated it in his post!

Show me where it says what King said it was doing and I'll shut up, otherwise, I'm going to throw my BULL$HIT flag and call King as making up a quote.. Where does it say this, specifically as King put it..?

Y'all ever heard the term sensationalism? It's where you work around facts, insert buzzwords and elicit a reaction from your audience.. Great for the evening news but it don't fly here..

I'm gonna just go ahead and call King out on this. Chip, don't hide behind "it's in the report" just me take my time to find it.. you said it, now back up your words.... I think you're sensationalizing this bit of information from the report and going all national enquirer on us... challenge thrown, flag thrown... You're someone who admittedly has never been to the races, you have no idea of how vast the landscape is, you have seen pictures, and you work on airplanes for a guy who owns a mustang (great guy, by the way)... you've posted something in my forum that I have not been able to verify.. your wording is far beyond what the NTSB factually have stated, even in their probable cause..

Where are the words Chip/King?

I'm not going to let up, I'll admit that I'm wrong if you can show me those words in the report, otherwise.. I'm standing on my BULL$HIT flag call!

Come'on.. .show me!

[xmh53wrench]

Re: AvWeb blog ref Ghost

"the pilot had to hold the control stick to the right of center."

If in fact it was "opposite lock", as was posted earlier, the photos (NTSB Image Study begining with pg 11) would not show the ailerons moving to correct the left over bank, he wouldve had no aileron movement left, and wouldve probably banked right into the ground right there (which in hindsight, _________......well you can fill in that blank).

Sometimes words matter....