NTSB Opens Docket on Reno Air Race Crash

[xmh53wrench]

Re: NTSB Opens Docket on Reno Air Race Crash

I stand corrected.....
But I will have to go back over it again, I guess I missed the "threaded lock nuts attaching the pitch actuator" you referenced.

Thanks

[King]

Re: NTSB Opens Docket on Reno Air Race Crash

In one of the final docs - Aircraft Performance 13 - Study in section "E. CONCLUSIONS"

A low amplitude flutter of the left trim tab due to loosening screws and a growing fatigue crack in one of the screws attaching the trim tabs could have increased in amplitude and cyclically loaded the control rod until it failed, causing the left roll and pitch up.

Look through the documents and photos again and the screws including a mention of cross threaded nuts (even a photo in there somewhere) are referenced several times. So yes, not my conclusion, the NTSB's in that doc. So reading all the docks before jumping on someone in the forums is a good idea.

Spacegrrrl

You probably ought to go back and read the report again on why the "screws were loose".

Jus sayin......

[bflynt]

Re: NTSB Opens Docket on Reno Air Race Crash

After reading the interviews I’m a bit surprised they didn’t interview more people. They only interviewed 2 people on the team? Together they answered less than 50% of the questions and one of them was the crew chief. In general, I’m surprised at the lack of knowledge about the aircraft and its systems by the people wrenching on it. Perhaps the person who really knew was in the cockpit but still I’d think the crew chief would know who, if anyone, did the engineering calcs for the modifications they made. I’ve seen more than 3 people working on the Ghost in the pits are the other crew members not cooperating with the investigation or something?

[51fixer]

Re: NTSB Opens Docket on Reno Air Race Crash

After reading the interviews I’m a bit surprised they didn’t interview more people. They only interviewed 2 people on the team? Together they answered less than 50% of the questions and one of them was the crew chief. In general, I’m surprised at the lack of knowledge about the aircraft and its systems by the people wrenching on it. Perhaps the person who really knew was in the cockpit but still I’d think the crew chief would know who, if anyone, did the engineering calcs for the modifications they made. I’ve seen more than 3 people working on the Ghost in the pits are the other crew members not cooperating with the investigation or something?

There isn't a FAA or Governmental regulation that requires a Crew Chief. There isn't any rules for what that position is responsible for or how much of the history from 40 years of racing should be known.
FAA rules pertain to airworthiness and involve the Owner/Operator and anyone who signs off maint performed in the logbooks.
I've been involved at Reno on racers who had elaborate crews with a Crew Chief who was responsible for everything, built the engine and participated in making the modifications and also where there wasn't much more than a group that wanted to hang out, have fun and drink beer. One was super competitive and the other just showed and motored around for fun.
So it is a possibility that Eric was given a title so he could coordinate crew workers more so than than anything else.
This is also an A/C that had been modified in the 60s, bellied in the desert in the early 70s and modified some more, Changed owners and modified further in the 80s and 90s and then parked for a decade and then modified further in the 2000s.
We all have rights and there is a process. If you are served and don't show, the Gov can have you arrested and hauled in but they have to pursue you to talk if you refuse. And even so you have legal grounds to not talk.

[King]

Re: NTSB Opens Docket on Reno Air Race Crash

There isn't a FAA or Governmental regulation that requires a Crew Chief. There isn't any rules for what that position is responsible for or how much of the history from 40 years of racing should be known.
FAA rules pertain to airworthiness and involve the Owner/Operator and anyone who signs off maint performed in the logbooks.
I've been involved at Reno on racers who had elaborate crews with a Crew Chief who was responsible for everything, built the engine and participated in making the modifications and also where there wasn't much more than a group that wanted to hang out, have fun and drink beer. One was super competitive and the other just showed and motored around for fun.
So it is a possibility that Eric was given a title so he could coordinate crew workers more so than than anything else.
This is also an A/C that had been modified in the 60s, bellied in the desert in the early 70s and modified some more, Changed owners and modified further in the 80s and 90s and then parked for a decade and then modified further in the 2000s.
We all have rights and there is a process. If you are served and don't show, the Gov can have you arrested and hauled in but they have to pursue you to talk if you refuse. And even so you have legal grounds to not talk.

And in this instance, if it was me, I sure would not talk much.

[bflynt]

Re: NTSB Opens Docket on Reno Air Race Crash

I understand why a person wouldn't want to cooperate with the investigation and totally get it is within their rights and a prudent decision. That being said, I’m still surprised that they could only find 2 that would talk out of the 20+that must have been involved.

On the lack of knowledge I’m not sure I buy 51fixer’s reasoning. You are correct in that there are different approaches to Reno and most are there to have fun and hang with old palls. The difference is the Ghost wasn’t field filler. It was a highly modified plane pushing the limits of what had been done before and racing in conditions that the planes were never designed for. In addition, the plane had been apart and reassembled at least twice since Mr. Leeward bought it. I find it surprising that even simple non-technical details like who approved modifications was not known by those working on the plane. What am I getting at? The NTSB report gives the impression (true or not) that the attention to detail required to race safely was not practiced by those involved.

[Mluvara]

Re: NTSB Opens Docket on Reno Air Race Crash

FYI - tomorrow morning, the NTSB board will be meeting regarding the accident report. It will be early for those on the west coast. - Monday, Aug 27th at 9:30am EST http://www.capitolconnection.net/capcon/ntsb/ntsb.htm

[51fixer]

Re: NTSB Opens Docket on Reno Air Race Crash

On the lack of knowledge I’m not sure I buy 51fixer’s reasoning. You are correct in that there are different approaches to Reno and most are there to have fun and hang with old palls. The difference is the Ghost wasn’t field filler. It was a highly modified plane pushing the limits of what had been done before and racing in conditions that the planes were never designed for. In addition, the plane had been apart and reassembled at least twice since Mr. Leeward bought it. I find it surprising that even simple non-technical details like who approved modifications was not known by those working on the plane. What am I getting at? The NTSB report gives the impression (true or not) that the attention to detail required to race safely was not practiced by those involved.

This is a piece of property which was managed by the owner.
It was at 2 facilities during it's rebuilding prior to 09 when it was moved to Minden. Was the Crew Chief or others in the crew involved in any of the work performed at those facilities where, we would assume, the overhaul of existing parts was performed and modifications were performed at the direction of the owner? It could be that you are hired and perform work at the direction of the owner. Maybe approvals and engineering wasn't known to those whose job it was to install items or bolt things together.
Some of the fastest laps at Reno have been flown by Mustangs in excess of 500 mph and were done safely. This tragedy happened at lap speeds far below that level and in weather conditions that have happened plenty of times during the races. I don't buy the line of It was a highly modified plane pushing the limits of what had been done before and racing in conditions that the planes were never designed for.
This isn't Nascar where the Crew Chief is hired before the season starts and is the person in charge of everything including telling the driver what to do in many circumstances.
The NTSB gives results as facts from what they look at. It is done their way within their culture. We could look at the findings and read in our perspective or expectations.

[C_roundy]

Re: NTSB Opens Docket on Reno Air Race Crash

Fixer, we are all having a hard time right now, during this transitional moment of closure. Please, Please don't let anything get to you right now, give yourself plenty of time to let it all settle.
At least we are blessed with some real measure of technical closure.
I for one, will be forever grateful to you Sir, for your forthright technical assistance, that helped so many of us gain understanding in the months immediately after the crash. If anyone deserves to give themselves a permanent break from stress over this difficult chapter in (what is now) history, you are among them Sir.

Best wishes to you and yours,
Chuck Roundy

[spacegrrrl]

Re: NTSB Opens Docket on Reno Air Race Crash

You probably ought to go back and read the report again on why the "screws were loose".

Jus sayin......

What are you suggesting I missed? Looks mostly like a number of defective/cross threaded lock nuts on the loose screws and maybe loose lock nuts on the control rods.

Spacegrrrl

[AAFO_WSagar]

Re: NTSB Opens Docket on Reno Air Race Crash

Why does everything have to be an argument with some people??

Pilot's voice heard once on the freq, after a tirade by a female ATC ground controller toward a confused pilot who could not find his way...

"wasn't I married to you once?"

Get the picture??

[51fixer]

Re: NTSB Opens Docket on Reno Air Race Crash

What are you suggesting I missed? Looks mostly like a number of defective/cross threaded lock nuts on the loose screws and maybe loose lock nuts on the control rods.

Spacegrrrl

I've pulled trim tabs from P-51s that the hardware was properly installed and tight and found damaged threads showing that it had been cross threaded in the past.
On the elevator in particular , it is easy for the tab with the nut to rotate and the screw to start in crossed. You have to look close as you install them. I've had to restart the process a time or 2.
I have a couple issues with the NTSB findings but I'm not going there in a public forum.

[spacegrrrl]

Re: NTSB Opens Docket on Reno Air Race Crash

I've pulled trim tabs from P-51s that the hardware was properly installed and tight and found damaged threads showing that it had been cross threaded in the past.
On the elevator in particular , it is easy for the tab with the nut to rotate and the screw to start in crossed. You have to look close as you install them. I've had to restart the process a time or 2.
I have a couple issues with the NTSB findings but I'm not going there in a public forum.

Did you provide your feedback to the NTSB? Sounds like you have some insight from direct experience that would be relevant.

The part that I found most relevant was that the nuts could easily be turned by hand on the bolts once removed. Not so much that they were found to be lose. I've had a LOT of experience with lock nuts in other applications and that seems very problematic to me.

Spacegrrrl

[51fixer]

Re: NTSB Opens Docket on Reno Air Race Crash

Did you provide your feedback to the NTSB? Sounds like you have some insight from direct experience that would be relevant.

The part that I found most relevant was that the nuts could easily be turned by hand on the bolts once removed. Not so much that they were found to be lose. I've had a LOT of experience with lock nuts in other applications and that seems very problematic to me.

Spacegrrrl

After a stress induced event it is possible that hardware and mounting pieces stretched or had material flow during overload or impact with the ground. Obviously this won't explain everything but could account for some hardware being able to rotate or ??? while sitting on the lab table.

I didn't read everything but was there mention of the jackscrew portion of the elevator trim system? It is mounted in the horizontal with the drum that is rotated by a cable wrapped on the drum. It turns the rotation into tab movement as the rod moves fore and aft to move the tab. I didn't know if they found enough of that to see if that suffered any issues in this. They show analysis of every other part of the elevator trim but that.

[AAFO_WSagar]

Re: NTSB Opens Docket on Reno Air Race Crash

Sitting here, trying to digest a lot of what I've just read, letting my thoughts mingle with things I have seen and heard in the past year, I think the one thing I'm really missing in all this is strong input from, at least, one really accomplished P-51 pilot... there are quite a few, some old, some not so.. I had a long conversation on the drive back with one of the best ones.. would be interesting to see comparison with thoughts then with what's now the probable cause (NTSB) findings.

With the 1000's hours of wealth of information that is potentially available within the mustang pilot roster, I wonder if there is anything a mustang can throw at a pilot that has not been experienced before and that could be talked about with someone who has experienced it?

I know, Ghost was not, truly a mustang, but, in a perfect world, we'd be able to get, not only the best of the best of the mechanics who have worked on the airplanes, but those pilots who worked along side them..

I just hope we really can know what truly did happen