Pacific Flyer: David Rose Story

[AAFO_WSagar]

Don't know if any of you read Wayman Dunlap's newsprint publication, Pacific Flyer, but he's managed to scoop us all with a very complete story on the new David Rose airplane..

Some of us here have shed some doubt on David's design work on past craft, but this article certainly gives a lot of credibility to his work, past and present..

I'd highly recommend the Ink&Paper version of the publication but since this issue is just about to be replaced by the next one.. this story is available on the net via PF's affliation with Landings.com at CLICK HERE..

Enjoy!

Wayne

[kiwiracefan]

Re: Pacific Flyer: David Rose Story

just read it Wayne, all i can say is wow, good luck to him, it certainly looks like a racer

[SCEPTER]

Re: Pacific Flyer: David Rose Story

It's suppossed to fly in August. Those props still don't look right to me. Hope it all works out.

[Bob]

Re: Pacific Flyer: David Rose Story

I think his method of cooling the motors is a stroke of genius. If you could adapt something like that to cars there would be a HUGE savings in drag.

[MRussell]

Re: Pacific Flyer: David Rose Story

The thing sounds like brilliance. I only hope for good luck for Dave and his team.

[aircooled]

Re: Pacific Flyer: David Rose Story

I really hope it works out and I applaud his ingenuity.

I am pretty sure surface type cooling has been tried before, I think the Germans experimented with it in a plane in WWII, and it didn't work out to well. I think it has something to do with the surface effect (the air really isn't moving that fast at the surface of the wing).

Anyway, this statement is a concern:

"The RP-4 wing is one of the most complex ever constructed," Rose said. "Less than three inches at its thickest point, it nevertheless contains flaps and ailerons as well as 200 feet of tubing and nearly 400 fabricated fittings and connectors which comprise the cooling systems."

Complex is never really a good thing (Osprey etc.). The 400 fittings thing is a bit scary. Reminds me of the time I was at Edwards and the guide there was telling us how the B1 bomber has all these fittings for the fuel lines in the swing wings (something like 8 lines per side, 8 fitting per line or something like that) even with very reliable fittings, because there were so many, it was pretty much a guarantee that plane would be always leaking from at least one fitting.

Anyway, don't want to discourage ingenuity. Hope he does well, I would love to see more planes like that out there.

[Propellerhead]

Re: Pacific Flyer: David Rose Story

I really hope it works out and I applaud his ingenuity.

I am pretty sure surface type cooling has been tried before, I think the Germans experimented with it in a plane in WWII, and it didn't work out to well. I think it has something to do with the surface effect (the air really isn't moving that fast at the surface of the wing).

Yes, surface cooling has been done before. When I heard about it I remembered Jimmy Doolittle, the Schneider Cup, and the Curtiss R3C:

http://www.nasm.si.edu/research/aero/aircraft/curtissr3c.htm

Money quote:
"Among the interesting features were the low-drag wing radiators made of corrugated brass sheeting, .004-inch thick, covering much of the surface of both upper and lower wings with the corrugations running chordwise."

[spacegrrrl]

Re: Pacific Flyer: David Rose Story

What is a "Dart" V-8? 5000HP for two V8s seems unlikely at first glance. Pretty interesting airplane to be sure. Too bad his primary goal isn't Reno but record setting.

Michele

[Skyracer]

Re: Pacific Flyer: David Rose Story

What is a "Dart" V-8? 5000HP for two V8s seems unlikely at first glance. Pretty interesting airplane to be sure. Too bad his primary goal isn't Reno but record setting.

Michele

Yes, a BBC will make 2500+ HP ... for a little while. Unfortunately, in an aircraft application that "little while" is a lot longer.

I salute Mr Rose for his creativity and ingenuity. I will reserve judgement of the design until the records are in the books.

[stuntflyr]

Re: Pacific Flyer: David Rose Story

Totally cool.

Chris...

[Arctic Cat]

Re: Pacific Flyer: David Rose Story

looks very interesting to say the least. One thing that caught my eye was using A/C condesors for the intercooler. My question, then how is he going to discard the heat from the a/c condesors? Seems repetitive to me.

I wish him the best of luck.

[Leo]

Re: Pacific Flyer: David Rose Story

Most of the Schneider Cup racers were "surface cooled" with Prestone radiators on the wings and floats and oil radiators on the fus.

[shadow]

Re: Pacific Flyer: David Rose Story

5000hp from two BBC V8s - for about 1 minute, if he's lucky.

"drag racing engine" - they run for less than 10secs at a time.....

Maximum continuous power by those two engines that he is going to need to accomplish the things he has set out in front of him is most likely around 2000hp. 1000hp from each. And that's being generous. To get 1000hp continuous for 100km he's got a ton of development and testing ahead of him.

I cannot image 2500hp being absorbed by each of those propellers. They'll run above mach 1? Why has all my reading up until this point dismissed running propellers above mach 1? Something's not right about this one.

I cannot image his cooling systems absorbing 5000hps' worth of waste heat.

This is way pie-in-the-sky stuff still. Unfortunately.

[stuntflyr]

Re: Pacific Flyer: David Rose Story

5000hp from two BBC V8s - for about 1 minute, if he's lucky.

"drag racing engine" - they run for less than 10secs at a time.....

Maximum continuous power by those two engines that he is going to need to accomplish the things he has set out in front of him is most likely around 2000hp. 1000hp from each. And that's being generous. To get 1000hp continuous for 100km he's got a ton of development and testing ahead of him.

I cannot image 2500hp being absorbed by each of those propellers. They'll run above mach 1? Why has all my reading up until this point dismissed running propellers above mach 1? Something's not right about this one.

I cannot image his cooling systems absorbing 5000hps' worth of waste heat.

This is way pie-in-the-sky stuff still. Unfortunately.

Here is your quote from 2006, Shadow;

"904ci DOHC 1200HP on pump gas. Add boost and you have 2000HP, add ADI and race gas and you have 2500HP+.

www.schubeckracing.com"


Are you saying that this guy's motors are better than the one's Dave is using, or are you talking out of your hat?


Also, are you an engineer in the specialty of thermal engineering? Your statement seems pretty concrete about the absolute certainty that Dave Rose's concept isn't going to cut the mustard.

I know that Pete Law is a thermal engineering expert. This brings up the question of whether Dave is/has employed Pete Law for these computations?

Chris...

[Blue Foam]

David Rose's record bird

Let's take this point by point, it's an interesting design. The critical factors are power to drag and whether the systems can handle it.

1. Airframe: It's tiny. It's about as small as could possibly be made for the power plants and weight required. Figure about 402 ft2 of total wetted area. This is about 45% of the wetted area of a clipped Mustang or Bearcat. With more power (2500 X2), and no cooling drag, it could have as little as 30% of the drag of the big guys and nearly 3X the power to drag ratio.

2. Power: Yes, they are drag race heads and blocks. I had very little respect for "drag race" technology with regard to longevity required for air racing until about 5 years ago. I was welding the 12-into-4 headers for the prototype Dart engine (no relation to the drag race parts supplier) when I was forced to endure evidence that this stuff lasts longer than I thought. I sat down to weld the first six pipes when a 1 liter (61 ci), de-stroked Honda drag racer went on the dyno and was throttled up to 600 HP at ~30 psi boost (90" MAP). 4 headers, 24 welds and 90 minutes later, the throttle was raised to over 900 HP and 45psi. They left it there for the next 30 minutes. I was choking under the damn helmet.

120" MAP.

On a motor they ran for the next 20 races and over 50 hours at power without cracking a bolt. The best mouse Merlin in history didn't survive this.

There are critical facets of engine technology to that have to be observed that have nothing to do with making power and everything to do with longevity. Whether Rose has done this or not, we'll have to wait and see. For now, he's got plenty of power. Power has to be absorbed by props and cooling systems.

3. Props: The un-ducted fan (UDF) research in the late 1980's showed this type of prop technology and the potential for running efficiently with supersonic tips. The technology exists, the props are about the right size and planform. Based on the flight test data, the diameter and blade shown in the pictures can translate 5000 HP into thrust at about .75 np at M.70. Personally, I'd go for more diameter and lower RPM and get the .92 np that's possible with UDF counter-rotating technology.

4. Cooling: This is where I have my doubts. Surface cooling looks good on paper although it has never worked well in practice except for the Perseus high-altitude program; it was marginally successful and didn't make full spec. Engineering-wise, it could work; practically, it hasn't worked well yet. So the jury's still out.

Even if they have to resort to radiators, the airframe is still plenty small and there's lots of power.

Bottom line, the design has the potential to waltz through the records that it's designed for. But it can't race the Reno course.

5600 GTOW and 57 ft2 wing area means that it needs a lift coefficient of .84 for a 4.1 G turn (500 mph lap) That's a little too high. It needs about 50% more wing area to be realistic as an Unlimited Gold winner.

Great piece of work, I look forward to seeing it.