Random Shot Of The Day - Part 2

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Originally Posted by wingman

I'd certainly be interested in exploring this. Steve Hill is a very big piece of the story, but it would be good to also get a man named Bill Rogers involved. He has posted here in the past as "Billro". Bill was crew chief for John Parker's championship efforts in Formula 1 and was involved in the great political battles between Eastern "sport plane" racers and what he considered the "real racers" in the West, as well as the propeller issues ongoing through everything. All this, with breaking metal props and crash landings was happening at much the same time. It was a very interesting and confusing (to insiders and to outsiders alike) time. Many interesting, complicated threads to the story. I wonder if Steve Hill would be interested in such a discussion?

Neal

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I would participate.

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Originally Posted by wingman

For all the three blade fans...

Not as sharp as I'd like, but I love that pylon 8 angle. It's an experience to stand there and have this thing come over your head at 490mph! It's an impossible place to take Gold Race photos, but pylon 8 is the best place on the field to really experience a Gold Race.

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Three blade propeller fan!!! Present!:luvlove:

It did kinda draw the eye, I guess...

I'm still curious why none of the Sea Fury guys tried running a 3 blade like Bears. I'f I'm not mistaken, there is one hanging in Sanders shop on the back wall. Yes it was a handful on a Bearcat, but a Sea Fury is a whole lot more airframe to absorb the harmonics ect. I can only wonder how fast September Fury would have been with it. (It would have looked awesome as well.)

Will

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Originally Posted by RAD2LTR

I'm still curious why none of the Sea Fury guys tried running a 3 blade like Bears. I'f I'm not mistaken, there is one hanging in Sanders shop on the back wall. Yes it was a handful on a Bearcat, but a Sea Fury is a whole lot more airframe to absorb the harmonics ect. I can only wonder how fast September Fury would have been with it. (It would have looked awesome as well.)

Will

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That three bladed prop that used to be on the Bearcat is the only one ever built. There are no spares.

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Originally Posted by knot4u

That three bladed prop that used to be on the Bearcat is the only one ever built. There are no spares.

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I was under the impression there were two made. Still, since Rod Lewis owned both planes at the time, it would have been interesting to see what SF could have done with it.

If there was only one, why is it hangin in the back of Sanders shop?

Will

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Originally Posted by RAD2LTR

I'm still curious why none of the Sea Fury guys tried running a 3 blade like Bears. I'f I'm not mistaken, there is one hanging in Sanders shop on the back wall. Yes it was a handful on a Bearcat, but a Sea Fury is a whole lot more airframe to absorb the harmonics ect. I can only wonder how fast September Fury would have been with it. (It would have looked awesome as well.)

Will

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Will,
Quite simply there never was a "3 Blades R Us" store. The design wasn't a resurrected World War 2 development program. It wasn't an experimental NACA program. The 3 blade propeller was designed in the minds of Carl Friend and Dave Cornell. Dave left the team the day after the surplus P-3
Orion blades were purchased for the project. We still had the research notes for the project and Carl Friend's input.

The 3 blade propeller modifications were proprietary, we took the modifications to the propeller shop. California Propeller Service did not come out and say, "Hey, we have this really great idea and are you interested?" No in fact when we approached them to build a propeller consisting of modified P3 blades with modified cuffs to clear the cowling based on using a 3 blade Constellation hub with specially created spacers so the blades would fit the hub Cal Prop thought about it quite deeply.

Finally Barry agreed to build and maintain the 3 blade for a fee with a planned ongoing inspection program. Part of the agreement required every one of my Lyle's closest living relatives to sign a release of liability in case of failure. They didn't want to be in the 3 Blade racing propeller business, plus it wasn't theirs to offer copies of. It was ours exclusively we assumed the risk, we got the rewards. Lyle never complained of the handling when he raced the plane. Point of fact as the crew we didn't have any inkling until John Penney brought the situation up. Lyle just used it because it went faster for the same power.

Bill Prewitt made the spinner backing plate out of billet aluminum and the carbon fiber spinner was made in-house by one of the fabricators of the B-2 Spirit prototype team. (We didn't know that then because nobody knew what a B-2 was) both the spinner and backing plate were designed to match the 4 blade diameter because the cowl opening and the afterbody were considered by now to be optimum.

Keep in mind to keep from cooking ignition coils and other items under the cowl a blower setup was devised for forcing air through the cowling after a run once the engine was shut off on the ground.

So in short the Sea Fury guys weren't ever offered one.

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Originally Posted by RAD2LTR

I was under the impression there were two made. Still, since Rod Lewis owned both planes at the time, it would have been interesting to see what SF could have done with it.

If there was only one, why is it hangin in the back of Sanders shop?

Will

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knot4u, worked at the propeller shop, was an Integral part of the Rare Bear Team he knows of what he speaks. There was only one ever made, I can't tell you anything more than that.

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Originally Posted by RAD2LTR

I was under the impression there were two made. Still, since Rod Lewis owned both planes at the time, it would have been interesting to see what SF could have done with it.

If there was only one, why is it hangin in the back of Sanders shop?

Will

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Can you post a picture of the prop in the Sanders hangar? If it's there it would be odd, but it has to be somewhere because it's not on the airplane anymore. Didn't the Sanders somehow get involved in the Cornell/Jackson American Spirit project at some point? I know Dave was planning on using a C-130A Aeroproducts prop, it would have three blades and be about the same size, maybe that's what's hanging on the wall. The Bearcat three blade is instantly recognizable to anyone who spent any time around it. A picture would really help. If someone did want to use it I'm not sure who you'd take it to for inspection/overhaul. If Keith Hironaka is still around getting him involved would be wise, he's disassembled/reassembled it more times than anyone else. I don't recall ever having an issue with that prop or the governors, but I overhauled and tested the governors so I'm probably biased.

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Originally Posted by RAD2LTR

I was under the impression there were two made. Still, since Rod Lewis owned both planes at the time, it would have been interesting to see what SF could have done with it.

If there was only one, why is it hangin in the back of Sanders shop?

Will

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Can you post a picture of the prop in the Sanders hangar? If it's there it would be odd, but it has to be somewhere because it's not on the airplane anymore. Didn't the Sanders somehow get involved in the Cornell/Jackson American Spirit project at some point? I know Dave was planning on using a C-130A Aeroproducts prop, it would have three blades and be about the same size, maybe that's what's hanging on the wall. The Bearcat three blade is instantly recognizable to anyone who spent any time around it. A picture would really help.

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Originally Posted by knot4u

Can you post a picture of the prop in the Sanders hangar? If it's there it would be odd, but it has to be somewhere because it's not on the airplane anymore. Didn't the Sanders somehow get involved in the Cornell/Jackson American Spirit project at some point? I know Dave was planning on using a C-130A Aeroproducts prop, it would have three blades and be about the same size, maybe that's what's hanging on the wall. The Bearcat three blade is instantly recognizable to anyone who spent any time around it. A picture would really help.

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I've been looking for the video with it in the background. I think it was done about 2018, possibly when September Fury was taken there. It was a pan across the hanger, and there was a big polished and white 3 blade with a wide cord and rounded tips, hanging on the wall. I ran this past a couple other people who vaguely remember the video as well. I think it might have been on the old Sanders website, but its not on the new one. I remember thinking "What the hell is that doing there?"

I guess there is a possibility that the video was actually at Ezell's and there was someone's Sea Fury in the pic making me think of Sanders :dunno:. (Apparently a more likely scenario.) Still, I remember thinking "why is that there" It doesn't belong "There" wherever there was. (Leading me to think it wasn't at Ezell's because that would make sense).

Will

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Originally Posted by RAD2LTR

I've been looking for the video with it in the background. I think it was done about 2018, possibly when September Fury was taken there. It was a pan across the hanger, and there was a big polished and white 3 blade with a wide cord and rounded tips, hanging on the wall. I ran this past a couple other people who vaguely remember the video as well. I think it might have been on the old Sanders website, but its not on the new one. I remember thinking "What the hell is that doing there?"

I guess there is a possibility that the video was actually at Ezell's and there was someone's Sea Fury in the pic making me think of Sanders :dunno:. (Apparently a more likely scenario.) Still, I remember thinking "why is that there" It doesn't belong "There" wherever there was. (Leading me to think it wasn't at Ezell's because that would make sense).

Will

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The only place I can think of it being is Rod Lewis's hangar, that's the only thing that makes any sense.

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Originally Posted by RAD2LTR

I've been looking for the video with it in the background. I think it was done about 2018, possibly when September Fury was taken there. It was a pan across the hanger, and there was a big polished and white 3 blade with a wide cord and rounded tips, hanging on the wall. I ran this past a couple other people who vaguely remember the video as well. I think it might have been on the old Sanders website, but its not on the new one. I remember thinking "What the hell is that doing there?"

I guess there is a possibility that the video was actually at Ezell's and there was someone's Sea Fury in the pic making me think of Sanders :dunno:. (Apparently a more likely scenario.) Still, I remember thinking "why is that there" It doesn't belong "There" wherever there was. (Leading me to think it wasn't at Ezell's because that would make sense).

Will

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Could it have been at Aviation Classics hangar? The Bearcat and 232 were stored there for a while.

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Originally Posted by knot4u

Could it have been at Aviation Classics hangar? The Bearcat and 232 were stored there for a while.

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Nope, again, that would have made sense. It was somewhere that it really didn't belong, hence the reason I remember it.

Will

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Originally Posted by RAD2LTR

Nope, again, that would have made sense. It was somewhere that it really didn't belong, hence the reason I remember it.

Will

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It's a mystery, we all know it exists and we all know it's the only one. We don't know where it is. It will surface eventually.

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Originally Posted by knot4u

It's a mystery, we all know it exists and we all know it's the only one. We don't know where it is. It will surface eventually.

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I'm pretty sure its now at Ezell's. The pic I remember seeing was not. I just don't know where that somewhere else was. I wish I could find the video again, but its not that big of a deal.

Will

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Originally Posted by RAD2LTR

I'm pretty sure its now at Ezell's. The pic I remember seeing was not. I just don't know where that somewhere else was. I wish I could find the video again, but its not that big of a deal.

Will

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I disagree about that particular propeller being "not that big of a deal".

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Originally Posted by knot4u

I disagree about that particular propeller being "not that big of a deal".

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And tomorrow I will share how big of a deal, recent questions have me in long put away boxes looking for information.

I don't think Will was referring to "this prop" as much as to the mystery of the prop in the video he remembered.

Neal

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Originally Posted by wingman

I don't think Will was referring to "this prop" as much as to the mystery of the prop in the video he remembered.

Neal

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I agree. But for anyone interested in Unlimited air racer history it's a pretty important piece. In my humble, unsolicited and valueless opinion it should be preserved and at least follow the airplane wherever it ends up.

Here's a photo from Ezell's shop in 2017, I believe it's been there since the Bear's first trip to their shop. I've seen another photo that puts it there in 2018 as well, but nothing beyond on that. Just a guess on my part but I don't see a reason as to why it would be anywhere else considering that Ezell is still working on the Bear.


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Originally Posted by CJAM427

Here's a photo from Ezell's shop in 2017, I believe it's been there since the Bear's first trip to their shop. I've seen another photo that puts it there in 2018 as well, but nothing beyond on that. Just a guess on my part but I don't see a reason as to why it would be anywhere else considering that Ezell is still working on the Bear.


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That sure looks like it.

Here's the aforementioned photo from May 2018



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Someone from Ezell's shop should know something about it. P51 A?

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Originally Posted by CJAM427

Here's the aforementioned photo from May 2018



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That certainly looks like it. I don’t recall the dome being black, but it’s been a long time. Thanks for taking the time to figure out where you spotted it.

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Originally Posted by Lockheed Bob

Someone from Ezell's shop should know something about it. P51 A?

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It's way too big for a Mustang. The modified cuffs on the obvious P-3 blades are pretty apparent even though they appear to be wrapped in cardboard or wrapping paper. Like I said before, anyone who has spent any time around it will recognize it quickly. It seems as if the mystery regarding the location of that prop is solved. If someone was to try to build a fake they wouldn't wrap it up, I suspect that's the one. I've pondered about what future purpose that prop might have, there are legal issues, and I still wonder who it could be sent to for inspection/overhaul (Cal-Prop doesn't exist anymore), and it's not just a plug and play to go from a Aeroproducts prop to a Hamilton Standard. I wonder what will happen to it? BCIV mentioned Barry Bearson, he was the owner of Cal-Prop when I worked there. I didn't work on props, I worked on prop controls, C-130 and P-3 stuff was our moneymaker, firebomber stuff was a close second and the warbird stuff was just icing on the cake. We did not work on small airplane propellers. When I joined the Bearcat team I was working as a newly appointed A/P at Santa Paula and eventually Gil offered me a job and I took it. I dont know if a place like Cal-Prop exists these days. The variety of what was going through that shop was pretty amazing. Trying to find a shop that would be willing to sign off any work on that prop might be difficult. Maybe it will end up as someones really cool ceiling fan.

Shots without the spinner are unusual. Quite different ...

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Originally Posted by wingman

Shots without the spinner are unusual. Quite different ...

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That's Gil and I either removing or reinstalling the prop at Reno. There would normally be no reason to remove the spinner or prop if the engine wasn't broken, and it wasn't. It was a strange day. Maybe BCIV can chime in as to why we were tasked to remove it. And the dome is polished as I did correctly recall, there was some teflon and if you look close you can see why. I miss Gil, we worked very closely together outside of the Bearcat for a long time. And before anyone says anything about any "product" in my hair, there was, it's engine oil. That whole thing happened right at the edge of our pit and Gil and I were testing the limits of 6' ladders 5' from a very curious/enthusiastic crowd of fans.

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Originally Posted by knot4u

That's Gil and I either removing or reinstalling the prop at Reno. There would normally be no reason to remove the spinner or prop if the engine wasn't broken, and it wasn't. It was a strange day. Maybe BCIV can chime in as to why we were tasked to remove it. And the dome is polished as I did correctly recall, there was some teflon and if you look close you can see why. I miss Gil, we worked very closely together outside of the Bearcat for a long time. And before anyone says anything about any "product" in my hair, there was, it's engine oil. That whole thing happened right at the edge of our pit and Gil and I were testing the limits of 6' ladders 5' from a very curious/enthusiastic crowd of fans.

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Well, in those days a fast Bear was an oily Bear, so if you didn't wear a hat, odds are, you'd end up with oil in one's hair.

I think the 3 blade went to Texas the first time the Bear did. That was why I was saying it would make sense if the pic I saw was at Ezell's, but I've got a pretty good memory, and the pic or video that I can't seem to find wasn't there. It wasn't the Bear cave either. I'm sure at this point more than a couple people think I'm smoking crack, since I can't find the pic/video I'm just going to let it go.

Will

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Originally Posted by RAD2LTR

Well, in those days a fast Bear was an oily Bear, so if you didn't wear a hat, odds are, you'd end up with oil in one's hair.

I think the 3 blade went to Texas the first time the Bear did. That was why I was saying it would make sense if the pic I saw was at Ezell's, but I've got a pretty good memory, and the pic or video that I can't seem to find wasn't there. It wasn't the Bear cave either. I'm sure at this point more than a couple people think I'm smoking crack, since I can't find the pic/video I'm just going to let it go.

Will

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With regards to hair products, look at Gil's hat, it was probably new when we got there that week.

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Originally Posted by knot4u

With regards to hair products, look at Gil's hat, it was probably new when we got there that week.

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As I said, a dirty Bear is a fast Bear. At that time, Bear was both dirty and fast. In more recent years, Bear has been clean, and not as fast. Whatever Mel Gregor and company were doing back then was clearly not being done by their successors. Sure the plane is clean, but its not as fast. There must be a correlation there somewhere ;)

Will

I was going to suggest at least it was cheaper than store-bought product, but you'd pay for it in toil and sweat instead!

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Originally Posted by RAD2LTR

As I said, a dirty Bear is a fast Bear. At that time, Bear was both dirty and fast. In more recent years, Bear has been clean, and not as fast. Whatever Mel Gregor and company were doing back then was clearly not being done by their successors. Sure the plane is clean, but its not as fast. There must be a correlation there somewhere ;)

Will

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With all due respect his name was Mel Gregoire. Another friend that I miss. If you were a man in your thirties and you invited an old friend over for BBQ and he stole not only your wifes heart but your dogs heart as well and he just smiled at you and you knew it was okay then maybe you knew someone like Mel. We actually did build a very clean engine once, but it was down on power, but not from anything we'd done. We blew it up. I'm not sure if I should say any more about that, it might be another one of those topics BCIV is in a better position to speak about.

I knew I saw the 3 blade prop on a hangar wall. It took me a while to find it. I took it on Thursday 9-14-2006.

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Originally Posted by Plane Nuts

I knew I saw the 3 blade prop on a hangar wall. It took me a while to find it. I took it on Thursday 9-14-2006.

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That's a nice picture of Bill Hickle. I was always envious, but not jealous, of his perfectly trimmed beard. Lots of 6' ladders too.

Notice that this was the time of the modified wing intakes. A mod that didn't work ?

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Originally Posted by MRE

Notice that this was the time of the modified wing intakes. A mod that didn't work ?

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Boil-off was always a Dave deal, and on paper it makes sense. I liked Dave, I worked with Dave away from air racing, I went to Dave and Bonnies house a few times and met the ridgebacks. Dave was very smart and wanted to change the world quickly. Greg Shaw was very smart and wanted to change the world one piece at a time. You can't change three things at the same time and assume any improvement you got was because of one of the three. One thing at a time and measure the improvement. I miss Dave and I miss Greg, I learned a lot from both.

Regarding a huge 3-blade prop that may or may not have been at the Sander's hangar, but was actually pictured at Ezell's. I know it has been discussed that "there was only one", but there *was* another 3-blade prop, at least in development... though it used square-tipped blades from a Lockheed L-188 instead of P-3 Orion blades. And indeed... at one point, it could be found at or around the Sander's facility. This was the prop that was planned to be used on "American Spirit", which was acquired by Mike Brown along with the first engine ultimately used on September Fury.

I have seen photos of this prop while it was at the Sander's shop. It's likely they had some idea to use it on the Sea Fury, though it was never implemented. Here it is attached to American Spirit:

https://hanksnet.com/images/as_p2.jpg

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Originally Posted by RichH

Regarding a huge 3-blade prop that may or may not have been at the Sander's hangar, but was actually pictured at Ezell's. I know it has been discussed that "there was only one", but there *was* another 3-blade prop, at least in development... though it used square-tipped blades from a Lockheed L-188 instead of P-3 Orion blades. And indeed... at one point, it could be found at or around the Sander's facility. This was the prop that was planned to be used on "American Spirit", which was acquired by Mike Brown along with the first engine ultimately used on September Fury.

I have seen photos of this prop while it was at the Sander's shop. It's likely they had some idea to use it on the Sea Fury, though it was never implemented. Here it is attached to American Spirit:

https://hanksnet.com/images/as_p2.jpg

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That's an early P-3 Aeroproducts propeller in Daves back yard barn in the San Fernando Valley, I've been there and I've laid hands on that airplane. When the early C-130's and P-3's were introduced they had three blade props and controls from Aeroproducts. It didn't work well, the props and controls were great, getting four of them working together caused a harmonic resonance that fatigued the wing spars and started causing accidents when the wing spar would fail. So Hamilton Standard came in and developed a four blade prop with a synchrophaser and it seemed to work pretty good because there's still plenty flying all over the world. The blades on the Bearcat three blade were Hamilton Standard P-3, the hub is a Hamilton Standard Constellation deal. The prop in that picture is an Aeroproducts and there's nothing wrong with it, the only reason those props were not used was because you couldn't use them safely in a group of four, a single engine airplane wouldn't suffer those issues and would take advantage of all of the engineering that eventually got them built to power the C-130 and P-3. I've always wondered if Dave chose that prop to snub his nose at the Bearcat with the Hamilton Standard three blade he helped engineer. Oddly enough most of my conversations with Dave were in the "test bench room" at Cal-Prop who would still use him as a contractor to build some test benches or adapters.

Just for kicks you might want to know the governor for the bearcat three blade was just a bit smaller and a lot heavier than a football. The regulator for the Aeroproducts prop was more of a two handed or two person sort of thing. The original Bearcat regulator was like Chicago pizza, it was kind of heavy but you could pick it up with one hand.