Not sure what to say about this one

[nevadasky]

http://www.nevadaappeal.com/article/20120112/NEWS/120119939/1070&ParentProfile=1058:confused:

[Coyote Chris]

Re: Not sure what to say about this one

My guess is Mr. Thomas has not been to the races in quite some time and does not realize that planes force land and fly over the "infield" all the time during maydays. His rational sounds like someone who hasnt attended or remembers how things are today.

[Air Boss]

Re: Not sure what to say about this one

I have a suggestion..."not a good idea."

Been kicked around before, including recently here on AAFO. So many things wrong here it's difficult to find a place to start.

How does this guy propose to get/keep the fans to the center of the course? What happens during and between qual runs, heats, etc? Want hundreds of shuttle buses taking fans back and forth, directly under testing, qualifying, and approach/departures, stiring up hugh clouds of dust and debris? What about concessions? Mayday's need the airspace above the center of the course and frequently make high-angle, engine out approaches to 14/32 or 08/26...you want that right over the heads of spectators? There aren't two course...there are four courses (Jets/Unlimited sharing one, Bip's and F1 sharing another, more or less). Where does he propose to place these fans? Do they move for each class?

Scatter patterns have been worked and worked and worked again, and again, and again. An a/c going down rounding Outer 8 will not reach the boxes or stands...period.

Need I continue?

Let's not knee-jerk this thing and set about "fixing" something that isn't really broken. It was a freak accident. Wholesale changes are not in order. Work the factors...find the cause...address the issues...resolve the problem, to the extent there is one.

[AirDOGGe]

Re: Not sure what to say about this one

That's the same thing I've suggested for years. I eventually realized that the cost of several tunnels under the course (as is done on some auto race-oval courses) would be too expensive for this endeavor.

Plus, moving all the stands to the middle doesn't do anything for the safety of the motorhome camping folks and pits-prowlers, assuming those areas would still be on the "outside".


I still think the RARA should at least set-up a single "premium" grandstand out there on the inside near the home pylon, for those who want to pay extra for a top view of the racers. One wide tunnel would do to serve for that, built via the cheaper "trench and cover" method rather than boring a tube.

Or maybe that's where the box seat should go, rather than the usual method of placing them closer to the track in front of the reserved stands, and thus closer to the danger. They still would get a great view for their money, and a better viewing angle of the racers to boot! There's a ticket-seller right there.



And since these expensive PREMIUM seats would be bought mostly by the well-to-do, the tunnel to the inside should look nice to make the stroll pleasant and their ticket expense seem fair, like the tunnel under the main boulevard at South Lake Tahoe between Harveys and Harrah's casinos, built to allow gamblers to pass back and forth during bad weather (see photo below).

Picture a similar tunnel running under the runway to the mid area, with historic air race photos on the walls instead of what's seen here:

Tunnel to Harrahs...

[xmh53wrench]

Re: Not sure what to say about this one

Excerpt from the linked article by Bob Thomas:
"Because the planes are almost always in a shallow-to-steep left turn while racing, and must fly outside of the pylons, any loss of control would propel the airplanes further to the outside of the course. There is no way in hell that last year's P-51 could have crashed inside the course while doing 480 mph and pulling over 9 G's."

This is clearly my own opinion, interpretation, speculation, and certainly in no way doubting any other race pilot's skill or experience, but.......
Based on Jason's video http://www.aafo.com/hangartalk/showthread.php?t=9356 IMO it was Jimmy Leeward's skill and experience that kept that aircraft from continuing its extremely hard left turn, overbank, and impending rolling over and into the ground and into the center of the race course, near pylon 8. Yes the outcome would have been greatly different if that had happened, and we probably wouldnt be having this conversation if it had......but if this author and other folks who subscribe to this placement of the crowd had had their way in the past and a lesser pilot had been in that very situation what would the discussion be then?
I realize thats alot of ifs and buts...

.......nevermind the obvious and already mentioned need for that airspace, and real estate for emergencies....If they dont have that airspace and the center of the course for that, all that is left is, flying wounded aircraft over populated areas outside the race course....that makes even less sense

new guy rambles on again...

[AirDOGGe]

Re: Not sure what to say about this one

There is one other problem with putting the people in the middle....Where do you put the air show?

The area out in the middle of the course is a favorite area of many peformers, from the Snowbirds making their head-on approach to an F-16 burning tight 360 aerial donuts with afterburner cookin' hard.


If performers have to fly a healthy distance from the crowds, then putting the show between the crowds on the inside and campers on the outside sort of boxes them in with less escape routes, does it not? That's a no-go if ever I saw one.


I think for this reason I choose to drop my suggestion of an elite seating section in the infield...I've decided that it's not practical now that I've studied it further.

[tow-3]

Re: Not sure what to say about this one

i find it interesting that all these people that say that moving the grandstands inside of the course is safer forget that mike dacey had to put his plane down in the infield the day before jimmy's accident.

[ignomini]

Re: Not sure what to say about this one

In addition to all the logistical and flight ops issues of attempting to put stands inside the course, there are two more very good reasons no one would want to sit there (at least after trying it once). If you've ever watched a circle track race from inside the track, you don't get to see much, and you've got your head on a swivel full time. Think of all the passing which takes place on the back side and entering the VoS. Sorry folks, can't see that from stands facing into the sun.

Second, about that sun in the spectator's eyes all day. People's faces will get fried, they'll be squinting into the sun all day, and photographers will hate it. Although I would pay a big premium and sign my life away to get out by a pylon for a day, you couldn't pay me to sit in the middle and look directly into the sun.

The article is typical of someone who hasn't been there and doesn't know the issues involved.

[Pete]

Re: Not sure what to say about this one

http://www.nevadaappeal.com/article/...1058:confused:

I liked his observation about experienced racers like Jimmy not flying too low and the 'young turk' in the bearcat.

Adds such validity to the rest of his theories.

Can we drop this idea of watching from the inside. It is a flawed pipe dream. Ain't gonna happen. And someone from the feds might latch onto it.

1. lousy place to watch, cant see the front stretch and the back stretch at the same time.
2. no facility inside, or to get inside, and no money to create one. Hard to get inside. everything has to get there, beer trucks, the sani hut truck.
3. interferes with the biggest, best, safest place to park a disabled plane during a mayday.
4. Airshow interference - can you run an airshow BETWEEN two crowds? Access to anything inside the course will have people waiting outside, the pits will be outside because thats where the concrete is, etc.
5. Viewing and the Sun. Better show with the sun at your back. This means grandstand faces NORTH. For good reason.

I plan on being there in September, sitting in the same grandstand from Friday to Sunday from the first biplane race thru the last unlimited race. Wed -Sun if I can swing it.

[Tim Jones]

Re: Not sure what to say about this one

[QUOTE=xmh53wrench;98447]Excerpt from the linked article by Bob Thomas:
"Because the planes are almost always in a shallow-to-steep left turn while racing, and must fly outside of the pylons, any loss of control would propel the airplanes further to the outside of the course. There is no way in hell that last year's P-51 could have crashed inside the course while doing 480 mph and pulling over 9 G's."



As I recall, Jimmy was traveling perpendicular to the crowd when this happened. There is no evidence that the plane could not have rolled inward toward the infield.
So, I suggest as has been stated earlier by others, that moving the stands would have no positive effect as related to this particular incident.

TJ

[Ron Lewark]

Re: Not sure what to say about this one

Mr. Thomas needs to stick to running a Fortune 500 company, and let RARA run the races!
Ron

[paintboy]

Re: Not sure what to say about this one

Wingtip was only 5 feet off the ground when rounding the final pylon, really. What an idiot! That's right, I said IDIOT, because someone has to. This Bozo has no idea of what he speaks and should stay within the safe confines of his office/home.

[Big_Jim]

Re: Not sure what to say about this one

Uh, well....for what it's worth, the 'young turk' in the Bearcat in question that Mr. Thomas is referring to was Richard Laidley in Darryl Greenamyer's Conquest 1, and the year he was referring to was 1972. And quite honestly, the '5 foot-reference' isn't that much of an exaggeration because not only was it reported that his wingtip vortices were leaving dust trails in the turns, but it also sent the judges at the pylon scattering for their safety.

Laidley was justifiably disqualified because he was repeatedly warned about his hazardously low flying...but he was also a very (repeat VERY) high-time, experienced test pilot.

Call the writer an idiot if you want, but even though he fails to identify that it was an isolated event over 40 years ago that was dealt with at the time....what he said was true.

[mgbf4u]

Re: Not sure what to say about this one

Didn't Lefty Gardner one year actually make contact with the ground?
Anyway, Mr Thomas is entitled to an opinion. You know what people say about opinions...

[Big_Jim]

Re: Not sure what to say about this one

Didn't Lefty Gardner one year actually make contact with the ground?
Anyway, Mr Thomas is entitled to an opinion. You know what people say about opinions...

Lefty hit a fencepost with his wingtip in 1981, but never made contact with the ground....but I think that was the same year that Skip Holm hit a jackrabbit on the back side of the course in Jeannie.

IIRC the only pilot to make contact with the ground was Ralph Rina in the T-6 Yabba Dabba Do in 1991 when he cartwheeled it in a turn during qualifying.